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Both DAC are transparent as measures by Amir, why one not as clean sounding as the other?

kschmit2

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Just random thoughts:

How are the 2 DACs connected to your system (i.e. to a preamp/integrated amp)? What's the internal signal path in that preamp/integrated amp? It could be better on one input vs. the other.
Did you try swapping inputs?
 

DSJR

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All,

I just got a brand new Topping d30pro. It sounded not as clean as my well used Gustard X16. Not sure how exactly to describe it. X16 just sounds right. D30pro is OK, but doesn't give me the "wow" I get from x16. This reminded me of the same feelings I got when the Gustard x16 was brand new and I compared to the well uses Topping E30. E30 sounded cleaner at that time.

Thanks!

Please may I pick up on the paragraph above? I read it that you got used to the E30 and wasn't sure about the X16 when you slipped it into your system. You've put the D30pro in and get the same less comfortable? vibe from it?

Don't flame me for asking, but how long did it take to get used to the Gustard unit over the E30 please? Have you given the same time to the new Topping? is the E30 inferior to you to these later dacs? E30 is my level, so just curious at what I may be missing when I finally take the plunge (my truly ancient but still sonically acceptable dac is 16/44 only, so you can see what a leap it would be for me on a technical level to upgrade and update).

I have absolutely no technical evidence to back it up and Amir's given up testing for this so obviously not really an issue, but the decades of 'HiFi dealer' in me still suggests the new gear might just *appear to* perform fractionally better after some time powered up from new and of course the new owner gradually gets used to using said new item as well and greater familiarity of the visuals and ergonomics does count for a lot subjectively (I accept your earlier comments so not having a dig at all - I did this when forced to change our old car last year when a very expensive engine ancillary failed - basically writing the car off - for a slightly smaller less old model which I now love having got used to it and enjoying the cheaper insurance and tax - just took me a month or two to adapt as our mileage isn't high these days and the thing's not in daily use).

On a purely subjective note and considering the above, can you continue using the Gustard with the Topping switched on in a different room or something, then swapping over a week or two later to see if you still feel the same? Totally bonkers to many people here, but a suggestion nonetheless, even if psychology might just play a part in all this (we do buy this gear to enjoy music through surely and music is as much an emotional connection inside 'us' as anything else - apologies for the amateurish description).
 

Yorkshire Mouth

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Frankly, the OP’s aggressive tone doesn’t lend one to believe he’s actually conducted, or is interested in any sensible, polite discussion.

Instructing others not to ‘lecture’ him in the first post, before anyone else has contributed, is not a signifier of the kind of dispassionate, objective debate which the subject requires.
 

restorer-john

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Frankly, the OP’s aggressive tone doesn’t lend one to believe he’s actually conducted, or is interested in any sensible, polite discussion.

Instructing others not to ‘lecture’ him in the first post, before anyone else has contributed, is not a signifier of the kind of dispassionate, objective debate which the subject requires.

With respect, I think he is responding/predicting to the classic, first responder, peanut-gallery call out for double blind ABX testing and a whole bunch of testing parameters they know most normal people cannot perform. He's short circuiting the usual forum BS, in other words.

I see his postings as genuinely trying to look for reasons as to why he hears* what he hears- nothing more than that. :)

*whether there is actually an audible difference or not.
 
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Yorkshire Mouth

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With respect, I think he is responding/predicting to the classic, first responder, peanut-gallery call out for double blind ABX testing and a whole bunch of testing parameters they know most normal people cannot perform. He's short circuiting the usual forum BS, in other words.

I see his postings as genuinely trying to look for reasons as to why he hears* what he hears- nothing more than that. :)

*whether there is actually an audible difference or not.

I appreciate your point, and had though about that myself. However, I think it’s possible to do that in a quite different tone.

“In case anyone was wondering, I’ve done several double blind ABX tests on this” would have been a great way of covering that area. “…please save the lectures…” is wholly unnecessary.
 

Foulchet

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Audibility is a complex case and I truly believe that you cannot perform a perfect isolated hearing process because the final signal lies in the brain (you can produce sound in your head without hearing them, right ? Maybe it activate your hears but you do not need to have an actual external sound). We speak about electrical interferences but it is somewhat the same for the brain. I am not qualified in this domain at all, but everyone experiences contextual perception in the presence of other stimuli. That is why blind tests are made, but there are still the internal signals like thinking, stress, whatever. That is also why I am in favor of a series of quick A/B since you eliminate much of contextual changes by not allowing your brain to focus on something else.

But I also believe that analytical hearing is a case of brain state of mind and long hearing sessions do relax the brain which can also accomodate and open to more parts of the signal. And maybe it is a matter of dB (because I notice that I generally need to play MP3/AAC at higher levels to have the same satisfaction as FLAC) but in a long hearing sessions I might have more satisfaction/less hearing fatigue with lossless. I will not state anything about this point because I cannot prove it, it is just a thought and experience sharing without knowing about the bias. Maybe small differences which are imposible to isolate in analytical can have an effect of overall perception in the brain.

Bottom line : maybe there are "audible" (consciously or not) differences but at the end of the day wanting no matter what to search for a truth is childish at best and is a way to avoid making choices. We have to accept that hearing is bound to other contextual perceptions and that pleasure is a catalyst of it. Cuisine accepted a long time ago that vision is a part of tasting : take the same ingredients, cooked the same, then the ugly presented dish will taste worse that the perfectly arranged one. The plate, the room, everything count.
Measurements are here to see whether a product has big issues (whether you subjectively like it or not). Then buy the product which pleases you (without making you bankrupt of course) and stick with it. The brain is a powerful equalizing machine : see how you react to TV picture changes. When you first switch - for instance - color setting, you might see a color bias which gradually disappears.
There are too much biases in the hearing signal path to be a perfectionnist in terms of sound. Especially when we speak about DACS.
if you really want to be sure, quick AB things on the same amp with the switch button an "trust" ("accept" is a better word) your findings. Minor differences will likely be eliminated by your brain is there is any. Especially because there is something you cannot do with hearing : compare side by side, and that is why you will never be able to truly tell things apart like you can do with screens.
I you prefer the gustard, return the D30 Pro and be happy with it. Buying something new if you are satisfied with something is a dangerous road and is completly silly.
 

charleski

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I appreciate your point, and had though about that myself. However, I think it’s possible to do that in a quite different tone.

“In case anyone was wondering, I’ve done several double blind ABX tests on this” would have been a great way of covering that area. “…please save the lectures…” is wholly unnecessary.
I found the old posts where the OP describes his testing paradigm and he's doing single-blind randomised trials. Obviously any measure to blind the test is good, but these shouldn't be described as double-blind.
 

aandres_gm

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I found the old posts where the OP describes his testing paradigm and he's doing single-blind randomised trials. Obviously any measure to blind the test is good, but these shouldn't be described as double-blind.
He's also looking for volume differences, as he states, which shouldn't be present in a good test setting.
 
OP
Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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I found the old posts where the OP describes his testing paradigm and he's doing single-blind randomised trials. Obviously any measure to blind the test is good, but these shouldn't be described as double-blind.
I said it is double blind because my helpers were blind to which DAC is which. I am also blind to their actions.
: )
They only pressed a left or right switch button based on coin flip.
 
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OP
Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Just random thoughts:

How are the 2 DACs connected to your system (i.e. to a preamp/integrated amp)? What's the internal signal path in that preamp/integrated amp? It could be better on one input vs. the other.
Did you try swapping inputs?
I have tried two different setups using both dac. Just swapped out DAC and everything else the same.

Living room:
Input: Coaxial in from node2i.
Output: xlr direct to amp. Amp direct to speakers.

Computer room:
Input: USB in from laptop
Output: RCA to topping L30. L30 to minidsp.
Minidsp to subs and to amp. Amp to speakers.
 
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OP
Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Please may I pick up on the paragraph above? I read it that you got used to the E30 and wasn't sure about the X16 when you slipped it into your system. You've put the D30pro in and get the same less comfortable? vibe from it?

Don't flame me for asking, but how long did it take to get used to the Gustard unit over the E30 please? Have you given the same time to the new Topping? is the E30 inferior to you to these later dacs? E30 is my level, so just curious at what I may be missing when I finally take the plunge (my truly ancient but still sonically acceptable dac is 16/44 only, so you can see what a leap it would be for me on a technical level to upgrade and update).

I have absolutely no technical evidence to back it up and Amir's given up testing for this so obviously not really an issue, but the decades of 'HiFi dealer' in me still suggests the new gear might just *appear to* perform fractionally better after some time powered up from new and of course the new owner gradually gets used to using said new item as well and greater familiarity of the visuals and ergonomics does count for a lot subjectively (I accept your earlier comments so not having a dig at all - I did this when forced to change our old car last year when a very expensive engine ancillary failed - basically writing the car off - for a slightly smaller less old model which I now love having got used to it and enjoying the cheaper insurance and tax - just took me a month or two to adapt as our mileage isn't high these days and the thing's not in daily use).

On a purely subjective note and considering the above, can you continue using the Gustard with the Topping switched on in a different room or something, then swapping over a week or two later to see if you still feel the same? Totally bonkers to many people here, but a suggestion nonetheless, even if psychology might just play a part in all this (we do buy this gear to enjoy music through surely and music is as much an emotional connection inside 'us' as anything else - apologies for the amateurish description).
As mentioned, I had E30 first. When I first got my X16, I thought it is missing the sparkles and the echo trails as compared to E30.

There is no preference after several weeks of usage, other than the 0.2db channel imbalance of X16 can cause slight difference.
 
OP
Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Frankly, the OP’s aggressive tone doesn’t lend one to believe he’s actually conducted, or is interested in any sensible, polite discussion.

Instructing others not to ‘lecture’ him in the first post, before anyone else has contributed, is not a signifier of the kind of dispassionate, objective debate which the subject requires.
I have done two voltage matched DAC comparisons so far. I have threads for them.

I have enough of certain types of respond in both threads. Both threads described in post #2 and #3 of https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tracking-my-listening-tests.24364/post-822052

You can read more there for details. I would really appreciate you can provide suggestions instead of straight out being negative.
 
Last edited:
OP
Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Audibility is a complex case and I truly believe that you cannot perform a perfect isolated hearing process because the final signal lies in the brain (you can produce sound in your head without hearing them, right ? Maybe it activate your hears but you do not need to have an actual external sound). We speak about electrical interferences but it is somewhat the same for the brain. I am not qualified in this domain at all, but everyone experiences contextual perception in the presence of other stimuli. That is why blind tests are made, but there are still the internal signals like thinking, stress, whatever. That is also why I am in favor of a series of quick A/B since you eliminate much of contextual changes by not allowing your brain to focus on something else.

But I also believe that analytical hearing is a case of brain state of mind and long hearing sessions do relax the brain which can also accomodate and open to more parts of the signal. And maybe it is a matter of dB (because I notice that I generally need to play MP3/AAC at higher levels to have the same satisfaction as FLAC) but in a long hearing sessions I might have more satisfaction/less hearing fatigue with lossless. I will not state anything about this point because I cannot prove it, it is just a thought and experience sharing without knowing about the bias. Maybe small differences which are imposible to isolate in analytical can have an effect of overall perception in the brain.

Bottom line : maybe there are "audible" (consciously or not) differences but at the end of the day wanting no matter what to search for a truth is childish at best and is a way to avoid making choices. We have to accept that hearing is bound to other contextual perceptions and that pleasure is a catalyst of it. Cuisine accepted a long time ago that vision is a part of tasting : take the same ingredients, cooked the same, then the ugly presented dish will taste worse that the perfectly arranged one. The plate, the room, everything count.
Measurements are here to see whether a product has big issues (whether you subjectively like it or not). Then buy the product which pleases you (without making you bankrupt of course) and stick with it. The brain is a powerful equalizing machine : see how you react to TV picture changes. When you first switch - for instance - color setting, you might see a color bias which gradually disappears.
There are too much biases in the hearing signal path to be a perfectionnist in terms of sound. Especially when we speak about DACS.
if you really want to be sure, quick AB things on the same amp with the switch button an "trust" ("accept" is a better word) your findings. Minor differences will likely be eliminated by your brain is there is any. Especially because there is something you cannot do with hearing : compare side by side, and that is why you will never be able to truly tell things apart like you can do with screens.
I you prefer the gustard, return the D30 Pro and be happy with it. Buying something new if you are satisfied with something is a dangerous road and is completly silly.
X16 is great. But, it has DC issue (especially from RCA out) when turning on and off. That can cause very loud noise from speakers and subs. I mainly using it with my ~$15K setup in living room. I don't want to risk damaging my pretty expensive speakers and subs.

I got d30pro because it does not has the DC issue and measured transparent. So, I feel safer using it with my living room setup.

Unfortunately, it just sounded a bit off to me when used in that setup.
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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He's also looking for volume differences, as he states, which shouldn't be present in a good test setting.
I am thinking that certain minor difference due to harmonics, filter, etc, could exhibit itself via very minor sound pressure difference. This thinking is based on my prior two DAC vs DAC blinds tests measurements.

In this particular case, I don't know where else to check as filter looks good, channel balance is within 0.05db, and tones check comparisons look fine other than 3khz. Thus I ask for suggestions here.
 

Yorkshire Mouth

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I have done two voltage matched DAC comparisons so far. I have threads for them.

I have enough of certain types of respond in both threads. Both threads described in post #2 and #3 of https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tracking-my-listening-tests.24364/post-822052

You can read more there for details. I would really appreciate you can provide suggestions instead of straight out being negative.

I’m not able to offer an opinion. Your experiments suggest something which should be impossible. If you’d come here scratching your head, it’d be an interesting puzzle. But as you’ve come here with such an aggressive posting style, it throws up the possibility that there’s an agenda involved which does not predispose me to accept your initial statement at face value.
 

Hayabusa

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I am going to repeat what I updated earlier in my prior response.

Given the same signal, d30pro is the louder one per my measurements. For example, d30pro right XLR output is about 1db louder than x16 right XLR output when given the same signal.

Again, please save the lecture about voltage matching. I am well aware of that.

Any other possibilities you can offer?

Thanks!

So from all of this I assume you did not ABX this specific comparison, else you would have done a proper level matching.
 

SIY

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With respect, I think he is responding/predicting to the classic, first responder, peanut-gallery call out for double blind ABX testing and a whole bunch of testing parameters they know most normal people cannot perform. He's short circuiting the usual forum BS, in other words.

I see his postings as genuinely trying to look for reasons as to why he hears* what he hears- nothing more than that. :)

*whether there is actually an audible difference or not.
If it were genuine, there would not be an a priori rejection of controls and consideration of the most likely hypothesis.
 

ElNino

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I don't think it is the filter issue. I use Filter 9 and it is flat.

View attachment 139559

You shouldn't discount the possibility of the filters being the issue. With filters, you have to look at the time domain as well as the frequency domain. The D30 Pro's filters are gently assymetric in the time domain (they look linear phase at first blush, but they're not). There isn't really a comparable filter on the Gustard.

I'm of the (minority here) view that the D30 Pro's filters are better, but if you're used to a classic linear phase filter, the Gustard may sound better. Pre-ringing can be perceived as detail or clarity to some listeners. That being said, the effect is extremely minor in the grand scheme of things.
 
OP
Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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You shouldn't discount the possibility of the filters being the issue. With filters, you have to look at the time domain as well as the frequency domain. The D30 Pro's filters are gently assymetric in the time domain (they look linear phase at first blush, but they're not). There isn't really a comparable filter on the Gustard.

I'm of the (minority here) view that the D30 Pro's filters are better, but if you're used to a classic linear phase filter, the Gustard may sound better. Pre-ringing can be perceived as detail or clarity to some listeners. That being said, the effect is extremely minor in the grand scheme of things.
Interesting....

Are you able to comment on song comparison using deltawave at
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...clean-sounding-as-the-other.24778/post-838531

Thanks!
 
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