Bi-Wiring speaker cables considerations

[Holmz]

And there is the rub!
The two differing definitions of Active Speaker systems.
One is (yours) that any powered speaker is Active.
The other is that, it is active only if the crossover is active.
The notion of active vs passive, is determined by the crossover topology employed.
So a bi-amp ed, otherwise passive speaker is still a passive system.
I endorse the latter definition.

I suppose we can define it amy way we want.

But if I buy a speaker that is an active speaker than I am expecting that it it is plug-n-play.
Usually with some signal and a power inlet.

And if I but a speaker with terminals on the back for power to go in, then that is a passive speaker.
If I put 1 amp, or two into the back of it, it is still a passive speaker.
And if those amps are being fed through a passive or active XO, then that does not matter a whole lot.

 

[terryforsythe]

Clearly, there is much confusion over the issue of active vs. passive.

I think the confusion stems from the fact that when low level filters (crossovers) are used before the amplifier, far most often they are active filters. Many people, including myself, refer to speaker systems that include active filters as "active speakers". Some people do not know that they are referred to as "active speakers" because they use active filters instead of passive filters. Apparently, they are under the impression that all speakers using low level filters are "active speakers". They probably are correct 99% of the time. The only time this is incorrect is in the rare situation that the low level filters are passive. I can't think of a single speaker manufacturer that uses passive low level filters for individual driver amplification, but there may be some boutique speaker builders that do it for low volume speakers and market it as a unique feature (with claims of how much better it is over active filters unsupported by any objective data).

 

[Holmz]

How could the latter definition possibly be correct? For instance, how could you possibly describe a single driver crossover less speaker with its's own inbuilt amplifier and only line level inputs as a passive loudspeaker?

Surely active simply means line level inputs and built in amplifiers, where and how the crossover is implemented isn't a defining characteristic of active speakers although, typically, an active speaker would have multiple drivers, inbuilt amplifiers and inbuilt, usually active, crossover.

Or if you have a passive speaker and plug an amp into it… be do not argue.
But when you plug 2 amps into it, with some XO then it becomes active?

Usually for you, myself, and others… if it does not have a power cord going into it, then it must be a passive speaker.
However for the other fellow, there is no requirement for it to have a power cord going into the ass end of it…

 

[wwenze]

Was it Atari or Colecovision that had the video signal and DC power use the same cable?

 

[EJ3]

Your Mom and dad talk to you about those things? well I never . . .

Use a pair of calipers!
Results in mm sq. Simple .. No?

View attachment 374946

Yes, except most things are not in mm here. I worked for Porsche Cars (the factory) for over 4 years, so I am well versed in mm & cm & ccm.
But never needed to check the wire diameter.
Here, I can eyeball wire gauges. (unless they are extremely fine, which is in a size category that I do not use). That seems simple, also.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Clearly, there is much confusion over the issue of active vs. passive.

As I had said, the debate goes on & ...

I think the confusion stems from the fact that when low level filters (crossovers) are used before the amplifier, far most often they are active filters.

Would be silly otherwise. Active filters are more accurate, can be done very cheaply. With DSP it can go to god-level.

Many people, including myself, refer to speaker systems that include active filters as "active speakers". Some people do not know that they are referred to as "active speakers" because they use active filters instead of passive filters. Apparently, they are under the impression that all speakers using low level filters are "active speakers". They probably are correct 99% of the time.

Actually, cheaper powered-speakers are all passive, with a built-in amp. Only the more expensive tend to be true Actives.
Electrostatic speakers need power, but are classed as passive.
The location of the amp, nor the need for electricity, determine anything.
Drivers can only be passive. Amps can only be active. The only thing that could be either active or passive, is the crossover circuit. Hence, it alone determines the mode of operation.
No crossover, is a piece of wire, also passive.

The only time this is incorrect is in the rare situation that the low level filters are passive. I can't think of a single speaker manufacturer that uses passive low level filters for individual driver amplification, but there may be some boutique speaker builders that do it for low volume speakers and market it as a unique feature (with claims of how much better it is over active filters unsupported by any objective data).

+1

 

[gwing]

Sorry but I don't except that classification. Yes drivers are passive (although I guess you could in theory build an active driver) and amps are active but speakers aren't drivers, they are a combination of driver, cabinet (usually), crossover (usually) and amplifier (sometimes). If it has an amplifier in it and a power cord it is an active speaker irrespective of what type of crossover it is. Speakers are speakers and crossovers are crossovers, they are different components and either can be active or passive and neither defines the other.

P.S I just remembered an old paper in Scientific American about 'TALS' or 'Tri amplified loudspeaker'. That had three drivers which were actually operated by integral stepper motors with their own active driver circuits so they might possibly qualify as active drivers (even if not practical).

 

[Sokel]

Sorry but I don't except that classification. Yes drivers are passive and amps are active but speakers aren't drivers, they are a combination of driver, cabinet (usually), crossover (usually) and amplifier (sometimes). If it has an amplifier in it and a power cord it is an active speaker irrespective of what type of crossover it is. Speakers are speakers and crossovers are crossovers, they are different components and either can be active or passive and neither defines the other.

The power cord does not mean much,it can be only powered or it can be fully active.
Or it may lack a power cord and still be one of the best actives (like Genelec 8381A )

 

[Ken Tajalli]

The power cord does not mean much,it can be only powered or it can be fully active.
Or it may lack a power cord and still be one of the best actives (like Genelec 8381A )

Back in 70s, Linn & Meridian were the pioneers of domestic Active speakers.
The Linn Isobarik later versions, had removable outboard Xover bricks (briks?!) so the speaker could then be driven in Active mode, so you could have it either way.
Early Actives used analogue active filters. Meridian soon developed Digital speakers with the DAC, the Xover and the amps all built in.
I don't recall Meridian ever making passive speakers.

 

[gwing]

The power cord does not mean much,it can be only powered or it can be fully active.
Or it may lack a power cord and still be one of the best actives (like Genelec 8381A )

Yep, it's got (according to the specs) a 2Kw amplifier in it, so it's an active speaker in my books, doesn't need anything else to qualify.

 

[Sokel]

Yep, it's got (according to the specs) a 2Kw amplifier in it, so it's an active speaker in my books, doesn't need anything else to qualify.

Nope,it's got 6kW of external amps,these ones:

Genelec's 8381A Smart Active Flagship Loudspeakers Redefine Studio Reference Category

For the audiophile or the studio, Genelec's flagship all-in-one loudspeaker system bring nearly 6,000-watts of power into your room.

www.ecoustics.com

 

[Gregm]

Hi,

I’m thinking of buying a pair of Bi-Wiring speaker cables with 2 connectors on one side and 4 connectors on the other side. Are there special considerations in comparison with conventional speaker cables? Do expensive cables provide more advanced sound quality?

Following this lengthy, erudite, and possibly confusing discussion, may I suggest you opt for the following before you buy the bi-wiring cables:

buy a length of cheap wire (either stranded or solid core) that is at least 8x the distance between amp & speakers (i.e. as if you were buying two stereo pairs). Usually 2.0-2.5mm wire will do.
Cut the wire in equal lengths, each length is long enough to run from your amp to the furthest speaker...
Connect wires in pairs on one side and keep the other side bare (i.e. remove the dielectric). {Optional: Mark each one of the two "other" sides so that yu can differentiate between them - this is sonically useless, but can serve as a visual audiophile tweak: you will connect all the marked endings to either the woofer or the upper frequencies.}
Connect the speakers side first, then the amp side; the bare side goes to the speakers, the connected side to the amp. Switch on the amop and listen.
If you like what you hear, leave as is and enjoy the music.
One day the future you might give the branded bi-wire cable as comparative listen - but if you like what you hear now, you're set.

 

[mhardy6647]

Yes, except most things are not in mm here. I worked for Porsche Cars (the factory) for over 4 years, so I am well versed in mm & cm & ccm.
But never needed to check the wire diameter.
Here, I can eyeball wire gauges. (unless they are extremely fine, which is in a size category that I do not use). That seems simple, also.

Wheels & tires (tyres) are funny.
metric tire sizes, Imperial wheel sizes.
My car, e.g., rides on 225R-17 stock tires. 225 mm tread with ... 17 inch wheel diameter.

(I may have already mentioned this in this very thread -- but I still find it ironically amusing)

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Wheels & tires (tyres) are funny.
metric tire sizes, Imperial wheel sizes.
My car, e.g., rides on 225R-17 stock tires. 225 mm tread with ... 17 inch wheel diameter.

(I may have already mentioned this in this very thread -- but I still find it ironically amusing)

Good one!
& in UK, distances are in miles, so are speeds (mph). But everything else is metric.
I think, they found it too expensive and difficult to change all the road signs.
Come to think of it manhoods are measured in inches too!

 

[EJ3]

Good one!
& in UK, distances are in miles, so are speeds (mph). But everything else is metric.
I think, they found it too expensive and difficult to change all the road signs.
Come to think of it manhoods are measured in inches too!

I don't know about elsewhere but her the anatomical part usually most noticed on females is measured in some combination of inches and A, B, C & sometimes doubles (DD), etc.
It's truly confounding!
But fun to try to figure out what the numeric/alpha relationship actually is when it is physically available for up close scrutinization.

 

[blanc]

Some cable manufacturers claim their Bi-wiring cables are made of different materials for high + mid frequency cable and low frequency cable. Does it make any sense?

 

[terryforsythe]

Some cable manufacturers claim their Bi-wiring cables are made of different materials for high + mid frequency cable and low frequency cable. Does it make any sense?

No. It may have some impact at 500 MHz, but not at audio frequencies.