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BEYMA 12XA30ND 12" Coaxial Driver Impressions

Plcamp

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I've heard a few implementations of Pure Audio Project speakers. The horn version I heard sounded a lot better than the TB version. Swapping that out will make a huge difference.

Yes…horn or coax or waveguided tweeter plus mid are all possibilities. I have difficulty deciding which to pursue.
 
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milezone

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Yes…horn or coax or waveguided tweeter plus mid are all possibilities. I have difficulty deciding which to pursue.

Per the points addressed in this thread and countless others, I would decide based on the size of the room and listening distance. If you're near field and in a small room a waveguided ribbon tweeter with a supplementary mid driver would be interesting. If you're looking to fill a larger room I would opt for a horn or coax.
 

q3cpma

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is this a serious comment? yes the sensitivity determines how dynamic a driver is (among other things) because the drivers also have power handling limits that stops us from pushing the lower sensitivity driver to the same output as the driver with the higher sensitivity.
I don't know how this work, but you quoted the wrong person.

Anyway, all this talk about sensitivity being needed for greater dynamics is bullshit, as most decent drivers can handle quite the instantaneous peaks; which is what dynamics are made of in almost all music. Long term output is another story, and mainly why PA stuff cares a lot about sensitivity.
 

MrPeabody

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All other factors being equal, a hypothetical full range driver with a lighter diaphragm will render more detail from a white noise signal (a signal comprised of infinite overtones) than a heavier diaphragm. I agree an efficient speaker isn't more dynamic operating within its specified limits. I'm sure your 8260s perform incredibly well at high volumes.

I don't think it is reasonable to say, "All other factors being equal". The design of a driver is a sort of juggling act of multiple parameters. In general, when one parameter is changed, this implies a corresponding change to one or more other factors, depending of the desired frequency response and sensitivity. If the mass of the coil/diaphragm assembly is increased, acceleration relative to a given amount of current will decrease, for the simple reason that F = m x a, where m is mass and a is acceleration. If acceleration relative to a given amount of current decreases, the upper end of the frequency response will roll off in the sensitivity curve. But this is easily corrected by increasing the force you get for a given amount of current, which can be done in a couple of different ways, either by making the magnetic field stronger in the gap, or else increasing the length of wire in the gap. (If you increase the length of the wire without simultaneously increasing the cross-section area of the coil wire, the DC resistance will increase and current will decrease.) Whichever of these methods is used, damping will increase. Consequently, the practical consequence of making the coil/diaphragm assembly more massive is that the driver will be less efficient, and correspondingly less sensitive. However the decrease in efficiency and in sensitivity won't necessarily have any direct affect on dynamic range. This would possibly happen, but if it does happen, it would be because the coil isn't able to dissipate heat as effectively as before the various changes were made that started with making the diaphragm more massive. While this could happen, it isn't something that would necessarily happen in a way whereby it would be correct to say that increasing the mass of the diaphragm/coil assembly will negatively impact the driver's dynamic range. (The decrease in efficiency implies an increase in the rate of heat production, so the heat dissipating ability of the coil would need to be improved somewhat, in order to avoid an increase in thermal compression and preserve the same dynamic range. But there are various ways to improve the heat dissipation ability of the coil, and as such, I don't think it would be correct to say that the changes made to increase force (toward compensating for an increase in moving mass) would implicitly diminish the dynamic range. The meaningful tradeoffs are with sensitivity and cost, and reduced sensitivity does not imply a decrease in dynamic range.
 

Zvu

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Not the point. We could use the figure .1 watt to get to 1000dB. Irrelevent.

If both the 83dB and 96dB speaker have a limit at 120dB where they start to compress and present large amounts of distortion, neither of them will sound more effortless or cleaner.

If it sounds cleaner, it's distortion, not dynamics.

Effortless also sounds like a distortion or compression issue, not related to efficiency and total SPL as I'm talking about speakers operating in their limits.

But it is not irrelevant. You're trying to have a philosophical discussion while i'm not because it is, in my view, pointless.

I agree that if both loudspeakers compress at 120dB, they'll both sound bad. What is highly unlikely, and i'd really appreciate at least one example, that any loudspeaker that does 83dB/1W/m will do 120dB/1m and work after that.

The OP mentioned models of existing loudspeakers. Some of them are thoroughly measured.
 

Zvu

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I don't know how this work, but you quoted the wrong person.

Anyway, all this talk about sensitivity being needed for greater dynamics is bullshit, as most decent drivers can handle quite the instantaneous peaks; which is what dynamics are made of in almost all music. Long term output is another story, and mainly why PA stuff cares a lot about sensitivity.

Would you back your claim with what you consider to be decent loudspeaker ? Then we can calculate how much will the sound level drop at say 3m (or god forbid more) distance and possibly find some distortion mesaurements at different levels just to see if your claim stands strong.
 

abdo123

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Would you back your claim with what you consider to be decent loudspeaker ? Then we can calculate how much will the sound level drop at say 3m (or god forbid more) distance and possibly find some distortion mesaurements at different levels just to see if your claim stands strong.

a decent speaker is a speaker that proves their nonsensical point.
 

stevenswall

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Would you back your claim with what you consider to be decent loudspeaker ? Then we can calculate how much will the sound level drop at say 3m (or god forbid more) distance and possibly find some distortion mesaurements at different levels just to see if your claim stands strong.

Look up any loudspeaker with 123dB peaks. Say a JBL M2 if I recall correctly.

Now take something that has half the perceived max volume, like a Genelec 8260 which off the top of my head is around 113dB peaks.

Let's play some music at 80dB average, and see what happens with a peak 15-20dB above average.

What would the measurement look like? My money is on them playing about 100dB each. So in effect, one has a dynamic range of 20, and the other has a dynamic range of 20dB.

Until you push the 113dB speaker so that it's hitting its limits, both speakers are equally 'dynamic' in that neither is acting as a dynamic range compressor or expander, the latter of which people like to pretend dynamic speakers do.

If you're talking about higher SPL without compression, great. That's called "speaker A louder." not, "speaker A sounds more dynamic than speaker B."

If someone likes loudness that's fine, but that's not dynamics and isn't going to be a notable difference between two speakers operating well within their respective capabilities.

Even if a speaker can do 200dB, it is not inherently more dynamic... And likely the person isn't using the word dynamic to mean dynamics.

An accurate observation would be something like "speaker A could go louder and speaker B was being pushed so there was clipping and compression and it couldn't handle the dynamics."

If no consideration of the situation or context is given then yeah: Blast everything and whatever can go louder 'sounds more dynamic' and car audio is where it's at.
 

puppet

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I've always considered the loudspeaker that can produce the highest SPL without issues as being the most/more dynamic by definition.
 

Chr1

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Currently using Tannoy V12s as mains: circa 2002, modern pro-audio/PA dual concentrics with twin subs. Amplification : either via a Lazarus H-1A or Technics SE-A1000M2. Sources: Topping DX3 Pro or Pioneer SC-LX86 AVR. Big fan of dual concentrics. (PS. Modern Pro Audio Tannoys sound fantastic... Just don't tell the masses. My V12s cost me £250 delivered. Best speakers I have owned. Nuts.
 
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milezone

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I've ordered some NCore amps to test in comparison with the 4w x 4w tube amp that I have on hand. Also I'm planning to install some Mark Audio MAOP 11 drivers in enclosures soon for bedroom speakers. These are rated at 88db sensitivity. I don't anticipate they will out perform the Beyma coaxials however at least I will have a reference of low sensitivity speakers to compare side by side with the high sensitivity Beymas. In the not too distant future I'm also planning to build a two way speaker using ER Audio electrostatic panels above 300hz to compare with the Beymas.


Some tests of ER Audio speakers can be found here: https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/er-audio-esl-panel-full-test


Also these look pretty interesting: https://emotiva.com/collections/loudspeakers/products/airmotiv-vaulta-in-ceiling-loudspeaker-pair

I'm skeptical as I'm unaware of Emotiva producing a stellar product however this price point is very good.
 

Plcamp

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Currently using Tannoy V12s as mains: circa 2002, modern pro-audio/PA dual concentrics with twin subs. Amplification : either via a Lazarus H-1A or Technics SE-A1000M2. Sources: Topping DX3 Pro or Pioneer SC-LX86 AVR. Big fan of dual concentrics. (PS. Modern Pro Audio Tannoys sound fantastic... Just don't tell the masses. My V12s cost me £250 delivered. Best speakers I have owned. Nuts.
This interests me.
 

Chr1

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The V12s are made for use with subs. They feature the same tweeter as some of the current top of the range "hi-fi" models as well as, the DMT15, DMT215 studio monitors from the 90s. Unlike the vintage silvers, reds, golds and the DMT range they are not fashionable and can be purchased for reasonable sums. Got mine on Ebay for £250 and a pair of the earlier T12s, (with the same drivers) on Gumtree for £350. Pro-audio Tannoy just isn't boutique/fashionable. Splendid.
 
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milezone

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I wonder how the driver technology compares with the old money prestige series. I've heard much praise about the DMT monitors. I've got three projects in the near term pipeline, tempted to add a fourth. Did you own them and the Beymas simultaneously? And if so and you remember please share a bit more about the differences in sound quality.

Upon comparison with my other speakers, there is no perceived difference in dynamics between these Beymas and my Genelecs at normal listening levels. As mentioned the Beymas perform better at loud volumes which my 8331s can't reach without clipping severely. And I maintain that I prefer their performance to the Genelec 8351s which I demoed. My conclusion at this point, is that dynamics and driver technology and or sensitivity are not necessarily related. The Beymas are excellent for filling a large space as they can play loud without any reduction in resolution, and presumably have good directivity at mid to far field listening distances. My conclusion is that for any normal size home, a large coax like this one is sufficient. Horns are presumably necessary in larger venues, to achieve certain directivity characteristics, or if one desires to use a specific variety of compression driver for whatever reason. I remain curious to hear some of the mega horn setups that I see pictures of on the web. I presume they are the last word in resolution, maybe surpassed only by electrostatic speakers. In my opinion such mega horns setups are unnecessary for normal sized rooms when electrostatic technology exists. And I suspect the Genelec One series are nearly as resolving as a contemporary electrostatic speaker. I hope to know for certain soon.

I do prefer the Beymas to conventional tower hifi speakers though I'm not certain why that would be.
 
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Chr1

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Apologies, I should have said that I haven't actually owned the Beymas. I was really just chiming in, in praise of pro-audio coaxial speakers for hi-fi use.
Personally, I spent too many years with decent enough hifi speakers that were fine at lower volumes, but then struggled as the SPL was raised.
 
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milezone

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Both I think. The fanciest tower speaker I've heard was a Kharma Enigma Veyron 1D or one generation prior, the biggest one. It sounded quite good. The arrangement of the drivers is pseudo coaxial perhaps contributing to my liking it. I cant imagine the diamond tweeter tech or whatever it was is all that legitimate. Presumably there's more science and logic behind the Beymas that I have. From recollection, aside from better more extended bass performance, and probably better linearity, I would say the Beymas are otherwise equal to the Kharmas. The only step up would be electrostatic speakers (for small listening spaces) and exotic compression drivers like the TADs in small horns. From my understanding the TADs are a more refined, obscure and obsessive diaphragm construction than Radian or Truextent Beryllium diaphragms which are coated beryllium over a substrate compared with TADs where the substrate is extracted leaving just the beryllium shell to reduce the mass of the diaphragm. I confess I have a bias towards Japanese audio related things including speakers, synths, music, recordings etc as I find the level refinement, design logic, and quality of voicing more to my liking.
 
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