Beyerdynamic DT990 Pro Review (headphone)

[ZööZ]

OK, I'll take one for the team (and I'm really asking this), how do you imagine a double blind test for headphone?

You'd need some schmuck to operate test who doesn't know much about the headphones and maybe you could use some numbing agents on the skin around the ears and some headband wraps to mask the feel of the headphone

 

[uwotm8]

While being obviously bass-emphasized and treble-sharp in some areas (fortunately it's mostly about zing! and there's no disgusting 2...5 kHz screeching-n-shouting bumps) I think 990s are actually good sounding headphones. Their "loudness-added" sound is rather pleasing and feels made right. Also I haven't heard any signs of distortion on casual/comfortable listening levels. Still, would not buy them BUT at least they're not as garbage as some overhyped austria-korean harman-curved models

 

[killdozzer]

You'd need some schmuck to operate test who doesn't know much about the headphones and maybe you could use some numbing agents on the skin around the ears and some headband wraps to mask the feel of the headphone

You understood my question right away. I get one blind, but how to make the other blind? I think Atanasi understood me as well. So, someone who doesn't know between what he is switching, he switches, and assessment comes from someone who knows how to read a graph, but doesn't know which headphones the graph belongs to.

And this is why I ask; this leads me to believe that whoever asks for DBT when it comes to headphones is, in fact, qustioning Amir's reading of the graphs, right? Because the graph itself won't be influenced by the brand name. It is what it is. Does someone think that Amir interpreted the graphs poorly? If so, could you tell me where exactly and which part?

Furthermore, I don't really see how you can do a DBT and use it for a review? Unless it's a DBT between the tested pair and a couple of dummies. In DBT you can rule out bias of any sort and find out can the subject tell something apart. In this case, apart from what?

OK, you might argue that seeing the graph makes you susceptible to describe headphones as bright bc it's in the graph, but maybe it's not audible. But the graph can also tell you if it's in the audible part of spectrum or not, right?

One other thing is; people who love and deffend these headphones fall into two categories. One group says - yes, they're bright, that's why I like them. The other says, they are not bright, they are good, I like them. Doesn't this make the whole thing kinda... I don't know, pointless? If the tests and review go against everyone's opinion, fine, let's see where it went wrong, but if it's 50/50...

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

OK, you might argue that seeing the graph makes you susceptible to describe headphones as bright bc it's in the graph, but maybe it's not audible. But the graph can also tell you if it's in the audible part of spectrum or not, right?

If you read Amirs post a while back, you will see even for s/o as experienced as him, what he sees in the graph does not always result in what he expects when he listens to the can in question.

IMHO his approach of measuring -> seeing sth. odd / icky -> EQing it away and then ABXing these EQ profiles in order to determine how audible it really is, is spot on and probably as neutral as you can get when evaluating gear.

As for double blind testing headphones: I think it is virtually impossible to do 100% unless the cans feel very similar. Say a DT-880 vs a DT-990. That would be doable. A DT-880 vs a Clear? The weight, clamping force and openness to surrounding sounds alone would give it away. Sure you could McGuyiver a fancy rig that reduces the weight or even interferes with the clamping force but I think the latter would already change the way the can sounds due to a difference in driver to ear distance. There is nothing you can do regarding the openness. The tiniest sound in the room would tell me immediately whether I am wearing my DT-880 or my Clear.

That being said: is it really necessary to DBT transducers? Their differences are usually fairly obvious to hear, compared to electronic devices in the chain.

 

[thewas]

"Blind" testing is necessary if you want to remove the influence of the bias knowing what you are hearing which is unfortunately significant.
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html

 

[xlen]

While that maybe true I really wonder why they don't sell worn-in pads. I mean do I have to accept 3-6 months of bad sound everytime I replace pads? Why not make the default pads like the worn-in pads?

do you buy a car and expect the engine to have had 1500km's of drive-in? no, you don't, there are multiple issues with people expecting perfection out of the box.

 

[xlen]

Amir's tests do NOT show voltage or current limits were a problem.
The 250 Ohm versions draw VERY little current. Even low power opamps can provide enough current.

yeah, they don't need a lot of current and that's been proven a long time ago, they need voltage, we'd need a material sciences expert to explain these things better, but in simple words, materials act differently at different voltages

 

[xlen]

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if it's been mentioned, but the core Beyer DT series (770, 880, 990) all seem to benefit from basic mods like putting a layer of felt or paper towel over the driver (beneath the foam disc that comes with the pad). I know @solderdude's post about taming the treble has been pretty influential in this regard, and I found it helpful when facing the same issue.

I do this on my 770 with a single layer of paper towel and it effectively nukes the treble spike and gives them a relatively more balanced sound. Granted, the 770 has a somewhat different frequency response than the others: they come packed with way more sub-bass, a weird dip in the upper bass, fairly even mids, and the same murder treble as the 990, just slightly less zealous. All this to say, zapping the worst of the treble brings the low-end to the fore in an ear-pleasing way. They still don't sound particularly balanced; the sub-bass is quite voluminous, the upper bass notch is still a bit strange, and the treble is still spicy, but they take the painful stock tuning and make it much more "fun". Paired with good soundstage for a closed-back and excellent comfort and durability, I find the 770 80 ohm to be worth the price for those times when I need a closed back for home use. The K371 has a better tuning but major tradeoffs in comfort, difficulty in getting a good seal, durability, diminished soundstage, etc.

As for the 990... yeah, seems pretty broken. The 880 has a better reputation from folks who like the Diffuse Field target; the treble is less intense, and it doesn't have the same upper bass / lower mid emphasis. Instead it's just lean and bright. Some folks like that. I'm guessing the driver has the same limitations in how it handles bass EQ, so Harman fans should probably look elsewhere. Still, Beyerdynamics have a very particular charm. Probably not what this crowd is looking for, but they're a live tracking workhorse for a reason.

Hmm, which pads do you have right now? Pleather or velour? In my experience, the pleather pads make the 770's sound better after the wear in, but wear in heavily affects the sound of both and you don't need any mods to tame the sound, after 3-6 months of wear in they have a more tamed bass and the treble isn't nearly as sharp as some may describe it, I've been using DT770's for some years now and along the way, I've had the options to compare to fresh set and other headphones, and I gotta say that worn 770's sound pretty different from a fresh set

 

[solderdude]

materials act differently at different voltages

In the case of headphones it is just a voicecoil made with thinner and higher resistance wire.
You need more windings though (as the current is smaller) but still the wire being thinner lowers the overall weight (for similar power efficiency)

 

[flipflop]

@Sean Olive, can you please confirm or deny that this list is correct?

High Anchor = Harman AE/OE target curve
Low Anchor = Meze 99 Classics
HP1 = Audeze LCD-4
HP2 = AKG N90Q
HP3 = AKG K712
HP4 = AKG K845BT
HP5 = AKG Y50BT
HP6 = AKG K812
HP7 = Oppo PM-3
HP8 = Sony MDR-1000X
HP9 = JBL E55BT
HP10 = Bose QC-35
HP11 = JBL Everest 710BT
HP12 = JBL T450BT
HP13 = Sony MDR-7506
HP14 = Sennheiser HD-800S
HP15 = JBL Everest Elite 750NC
HP16 = HIFIMAN HE400S
HP17 = Shure SRH840
HP18 = AudioQuest Night Owl
HP19 = Shure SRH1540
HP20 = Sennheiser HD-650
HP21 = Mr. Speaker Ether Flow
HP22 = Grado Prestige Series SR325e
HP23 = Pioneer SE-Master 1
HP24 = Beats Solo2 Wireless
HP25 = Philips Fidelio X1
HP26 = Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro
HP27 = Focal Utopia
HP28 = Oppo PM-1
HP29 = Sennheiser HD-25
HP30 = Sony MDR-100ABN

 

[stalepie2]

In the case of headphones it is just a voicecoil made with thinner and higher resistance wire.
You need more windings though (as the current is smaller) but still the wire being thinner lowers the overall weight (for similar power efficiency)

Beyer says their 80ohm 770 might sound a little different, or at least have different distortion, due to using an overhang voice coil instead of the underhang kind that the 32 and 250 ohm versions use: https://support.beyerdynamic.com/hc/en-us/articles/202503041-Which-DT-770-for-which-source-

 

[ishouldbeking]

Hmm, which pads do you have right now? Pleather or velour? In my experience, the pleather pads make the 770's sound better after the wear in, but wear in heavily affects the sound of both and you don't need any mods to tame the sound, after 3-6 months of wear in they have a more tamed bass and the treble isn't nearly as sharp as some may describe it, I've been using DT770's for some years now and along the way, I've had the options to compare to fresh set and other headphones, and I gotta say that worn 770's sound pretty different from a fresh set

I use the more common velour; wasn't a fan of the pleathers on the 770, though they are better for isolation. Definitely notice a difference over time, the same way the Sennheiser 6 series gradually grows more dull sounding as the foam breaks down (though that's a bigger issue for the Senns than here, where the treble is quite brutal). Treble sensitivity varies widely by listener, which is why I suspect a lot of people have no problem with the Beyerdynamic stock tuning, whereas I find it painful out of the box, even on slightly less bright cans like the 770.

 

[ishouldbeking]

Beyer says their 80ohm 770 might sound a little different, or at least have different distortion, due to using an overhang voice coil instead of the underhang kind that the 32 and 250 ohm versions use: https://support.beyerdynamic.com/hc/en-us/articles/202503041-Which-DT-770-for-which-source-

Could be mistaken, but I vaguely recall one of the Beyer modification gurus also saying something about different damping materials used in the 80 ohm. But again, could just be from construction changes over time; they've certainly made tweaks over the years.

 

[xlen]

I use the more common velour; wasn't a fan of the pleathers on the 770, though they are better for isolation. Definitely notice a difference over time, the same way the Sennheiser 6 series gradually grows more dull sounding as the foam breaks down (though that's a bigger issue for the Senns than here, where the treble is quite brutal). Treble sensitivity varies widely by listener, which is why I suspect a lot of people have no problem with the Beyerdynamic stock tuning, whereas I find it painful out of the box, even on slightly less bright cans like the 770.

Sure, the listener is a way larger variable than any gear, which imho is why most reviews should have a focus on distortion and what's the stronger range of frequencies, where it rolls off etc, not does the reviewer like the sound, and how the graph looks like as FR graphs do only speak in half-truths, the same graph can have a completely different sound on 2 different cans, I can give a good example

these graphs sub 200Hz look almost identical, but CST is open back, so it has a heavy audible bass roll-off at around 80Hz, while the audible roll-off of ZS10 PRO is around 30Hz and well these IEM's actually sound completely different even though FR graph says they are pretty close, and well then comes in the listener, I quite like the ZS10 PRO, but I don't like the sound of CST, meanwhile there are multiple reviewers stating that they prefer CST over ZS10 PRO

 

[ishouldbeking]

Sure, the listener is a way larger variable than any gear, which imho is why most reviews should have a focus on distortion and what's the stronger range of frequencies, where it rolls off etc, not does the reviewer like the sound, and how the graph looks like as FR graphs do only speak in half-truths, the same graph can have a completely different sound on 2 different cans, I can give a good example
View attachment 110385these graphs sub 200Hz look almost identical, but CST is open back, so it has a heavy audible bass roll-off at around 80Hz, while the audible roll-off of ZS10 PRO is around 30Hz and well these IEM's actually sound completely different even though FR graph says they are pretty close, and well then comes in the listener, I quite like the ZS10 PRO, but I don't like the sound of CST, meanwhile there are multiple reviewers stating that they prefer CST over ZS10 PRO

Yeah, it's funny how it all works. No perfect solution, especially factoring in unit variation, fit issues, and other hard to control for variables. In actual practice, I think comfort is just as important as raw sonic performance, but comfort is the most subjective of all, go figure.

 

[solderdude]

Beyer says their 80ohm 770 might sound a little different, or at least have different distortion, due to using an overhang voice coil instead of the underhang kind that the 32 and 250 ohm versions use: https://support.beyerdynamic.com/hc/en-us/articles/202503041-Which-DT-770-for-which-source-

It would be interesting if @amirm could get his hands on one. This one will have lower distortion at higher SPL.
Don't know anyone else who measures at 114dB SPL.
Probably the 80 Ohm is the only Beyer that can go loud.

 

[ZööZ]

https://support.beyerdynamic.com/hc...-and-DT-990-Edition-differ-in-terms-of-sound-

So there goes my hope that my 600ohm edition has better bass distortion than the pro Amir tested as they don't seem to mention such a benefit?

 

[thunderchicken]

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if it's been mentioned, but the core Beyer DT series (770, 880, 990) all seem to benefit from basic mods like putting a layer of felt or paper towel over the driver (beneath the foam disc that comes with the pad). I know @solderdude's post about taming the treble has been pretty influential in this regard, and I found it helpful when facing the same issue.

I do this on my 770 with a single layer of paper towel and it effectively nukes the treble spike and gives them a relatively more balanced sound. Granted, the 770 has a somewhat different frequency response than the others: they come packed with way more sub-bass, a weird dip in the upper bass, fairly even mids, and the same murder treble as the 990, just slightly less zealous. All this to say, zapping the worst of the treble brings the low-end to the fore in an ear-pleasing way. They still don't sound particularly balanced; the sub-bass is quite voluminous, the upper bass notch is still a bit strange, and the treble is still spicy, but they take the painful stock tuning and make it much more "fun". Paired with good soundstage for a closed-back and excellent comfort and durability, I find the 770 80 ohm to be worth the price for those times when I need a closed back for home use. The K371 has a better tuning but major tradeoffs in comfort, difficulty in getting a good seal, durability, diminished soundstage, etc.

As for the 990... yeah, seems pretty broken. The 880 has a better reputation from folks who like the Diffuse Field target; the treble is less intense, and it doesn't have the same upper bass / lower mid emphasis. Instead it's just lean and bright. Some folks like that. I'm guessing the driver has the same limitations in how it handles bass EQ, so Harman fans should probably look elsewhere. Still, Beyerdynamics have a very particular charm. Probably not what this crowd is looking for, but they're a live tracking workhorse for a reason.

You know, I changed the pads out when I modded my 880s. That treble spike is really bad and I'm not sure who would want that stock sound. I bought the Beyers specifically to mod and like how they turned out both in terms of SQ and comfort. I think it's a little weird that they're /so/ broken from the factory. Such a big name company should have figured out the issues by now and updated the product.

 

[Lotus97]

I would like to add something to this thread about these headphones. I have these same ones for over 6 years now, was running them from PC sound cards and desktop DAC/AMPs, felt something was missing or not right until one day I decided to run them off my Yamaha Intergraded Amp A-S2000 and the difference was night and day. The bass came alive, not just some typical bass, but it had thumping bass, growling bass, the mids were lush and highs sounded so much different than using other amps from sound cards and desktop amp/dac.

I am sure that the instrument will not pick these differences up but man, what a difference in sound.

 

[lordhumungous]

I would like to add something to this thread about these headphones. I have these same ones for over 6 years now, was running them from PC sound cards and desktop DAC/AMPs, felt something was missing or not right until one day I decided to run them off my Yamaha Intergraded Amp A-S2000 and the difference was night and day. The bass came alive, not just some everyday bass, but it had thumping bass, growling bass, the mids were elevated and highs sounded so much different than using other amps from sound cards and desktop amp/dac.

I am sure that the instrument will not pick these differences up but man, what a difference in sound.

I like the treble on the Beyers . I’ll fully admit that I have hearing loss from being a musician and also going to many Led Zeppelin , Who and Black Sabbath concerts , the treble spike I just don’t really hear . Many have said the KEF LS 50 ‘s are bright to them but I don’t find this to be the case in my instance . I can only assume that those saying this have better hearing and less frequency loss than I do .