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hmt

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What major bugs? Haven’t noticed any major bugs?
Update process was indeed pants last year but after certain update got better - still indeed it’s not as good as it could be but thankfully latest version is stable so don’t need to update it any more.
That’s the price to pay with boutique manufacturers
Sub out 3 and 4 still dont work when played DTS X. There are still others but I do not follow all of them. This bug is out there since the unit was released and well known. That they still did not fix it speaks volume to me.
 

Daka

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Sub out 3 and 4 still dont work when played DTS X. There are still others but I do not follow all of them. This bug is out there since the unit was released and well known. That they still did not fix it speaks volume to me.
Haven’t noticed, I do remember there was something like that highlighted in the past - not sure if fixed or not - I use 3 sub outputs including 13/14 channel. I don’t watch much of dts x content maybe that’s why - will check tomorrow if still the issue. But bug free it is not for sure.
 

Dougey_Jones

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Well that’s simply not true. You might measure very faulty by design SINAD but that doesn’t give the full picture when it comes to AVR, gives you very little actually. Otherwise Denon would be claimed Holly grail and no one would buy anything more expensive and dare to claim it’s better.
Exactly how many people do you actually think spend $20k on an HT processor? Their website claims 10,000 installations of Trinnov's Optimizer WORLDWIDE across all product lines and segments. I'd love to know how many units of the Altitude 16/32 have actually been shipped.

Again, not knocking their technology or room calibration platform, just trying to be realistic here. BTW, I own an RZ50 because I prefer Dirac, so I'm definitely not a Denon x-series fanboy.
 

Daka

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I
Exactly how many people do you actually think spend $20k on an HT processor? Their website claims 10,000 installations of Trinnov's Optimizer WORLDWIDE across all product lines and segments. I'd love to know how many units of the Altitude 16/32 have actually been shipped.

Again, not knocking their technology or room calibration platform, just trying to be realistic here. BTW, I own an RZ50 because I prefer Dirac, so I'm definitely not a Denon x-series fanboy.
i don’t even have Trinnov in mind. SINAD is 100 year old metric that oversimplifies picture. Many people say over 80db you can’t really hear difference yet some will think 90db is awful. What people like Amirm do is trying to apply audiophile metrics in HT space, which is fine as long as people understand what they exactly are. But I see lots of people treat it as main criteria in selecting AVR and advise beginners to do the same. That’s misleading. Room correction is far more important than difference between SINAD 90 or 100.
 

lashto

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Oh yeah, just hit some strawman and don't think about what I actually meant. Instead you could learn how to actually interpret measuremnts instead of looking at some SINAD table.
so, what did you mean exactly?

could it be that you meant to use the it's-not-audible 'argument'?! It's very wrong but no need to discuss SINAD/audibility details because that 'argument' was repeatedly eliminated as "not the point" in the 3800 measurements thread. Or in my other post here...

P.S.
in any case, if you want a useful answer you should first state your point clearly. Otherwise, I'm guessing your point and then responding to my own guess. Feels quite strange...
 
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Dougey_Jones

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i don’t even have Trinnov in mind. SINAD is 100 year old metric that oversimplifies picture. Many people say over 80db you can’t really hear difference yet some will think 90db is awful. What people like Amirm do is trying to apply audiophile metrics in HT space, which is fine as long as people understand what they exactly are. But I see lots of people treat it as main criteria in selecting AVR and advise beginners to do the same. That’s misleading. Room correction is far more important than difference between SINAD 90 or 100.
You sound like you're in the wrong forum lol. SINAD is a useful measure in Home Theater products precisely because there are often so many different functions being performed. The more that's going on inside a product the greater the risk of one function interfering with the overall performance.

The fact that most manufacturers are too lazy or cheap to do proper isolation isn't anybody's fault @ ASR. There's no reason we can't have high performing hardware AND good/great room correction software. MiniDSP comes to mind as a purveyor that generally provides this.
 

lashto

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You don't buy a trinnov just for it's SINAD.
the trinnov has pretty average SINAD, even for an AVP/R. Looks like people buy it in spite of SINAD. And if the DSP is as good as some say, they might be 'right' too.
Anyway, it's their money/choice. And Trinnov seems like an ok company, at least I haven't heard of D&M-like issues.
 
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Chrispy

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You sound like you're in the wrong forum lol. SINAD is a useful measure in Home Theater products precisely because there are often so many different functions being performed. The more that's going on inside a product the greater the risk of one function interfering with the overall performance.

The fact that most manufacturers are too lazy or cheap to do proper isolation isn't anybody's fault @ ASR. There's no reason we can't have high performing hardware AND good/great room correction software. MiniDSP comes to mind as a purveyor that generally provides this.
But who is actually measuring the full capabilities of avrs/pre-pros with a lot going on ?
 

Dougey_Jones

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But who is actually measuring the full capabilities of avrs/pre-pros with a lot going on ?
Is anybody doing a better job than Amir? To do better we'd need testing methodology that stressed the video switching and all channels at the same time, not to mention on the fly encoding into various surround formats. Who's going to create that testing suite for free?
 

sarumbear

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Not when you can get that exact performance from a mid level Denon receiver with the amps disabled..
Are you telling us that the highest ranking Denon on test here can be bested by another Denon? Can we hear the model in question and see it’s tests, please?
 

Daka

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Right forum to talk with people and exchange experiences - invaluable and more useful to me than reading test measurements big part of which humans either can’t hear or with parameters which are far from use case scenario (like many manufactures use filters which can affect measurements in unrealistic parameters).
So really you get only small picture about product and definitely won’t answer question whether you would enjoy it or not.
Good example is lyngdorf for instance judging from reviews absolutely terrible products yet owners are absolutely stunned by its performance. This should tell you that those measurements alone can give you very misleading picture.

Have a read here for instance you will understand better what I mean in regards to SINAD https://headphones.com/community/reviews-learning-and-news/evaluating-sinad-why-its-not-important
 

sarumbear

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I'm aware that their Optimizer is best in class, I just wouldn't pay almost $20k for the privilege.
I suggest you study Trinnov more. Optimiser is just one of its facilities.
 

Daka

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the trinnov has pretty average SINAD, even for an AVP/R. Looks like people buy it in spite of SINAD. And if the DSP is as good as some say, they might be 'right' too.
Anyway, it's their money/choice. And Trinnov seems like an ok company, at least I haven't heard of D&M-like issues.
Doesn’t it have 100db? You can hear difference between 100 and let’s say 110/120db…? I wouldn’t think that’s possible
 

Chrispy

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Is anybody doing a better job than Amir? To do better we'd need testing methodology that stressed the video switching and all channels at the same time, not to mention on the fly encoding into various surround formats. Who's going to create that testing suite for free?
Not casting aspersions on Amir but it is basically 2ch testing only with not much going on....can imagine it might take a different/better test rig to make it easier on Amir (but not the budget otoh).
 

sarumbear

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Exactly how many people do you actually think spend $20k on an HT processor? Their website claims 10,000 installations of Trinnov's Optimizer WORLDWIDE across all product lines and segments. I'd love to know how many units of the Altitude 16/32 have actually been shipped.
I’m surprised how people have no idea about the market place but think they can question a prominent manufacturer data.
 

Dougey_Jones

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Not casting aspersions on Amir but it is basically 2ch testing only with not much going on....can imagine it might take a different/better test rig to make it easier on Amir (but not the budget otoh).
I'll ask the question again. Are there any media outlets doing more comprehensive testing?
 

Dougey_Jones

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I’m surprised how people have no idea about the market place but think they can question a prominent manufacturer data.
I got those numbers from their website, what are you talking about?
 

sarumbear

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Daka

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I'll ask the question again. Are there any media outlets doing more comprehensive testing?
I haven’t come across any. Not sure if rig like that exist anywhere and how would it work. I don’t think it would be anything off the shelf - whole methodology would have to be invented. Some sound engineering level of knowledge would be required for sure. Someone who develops AVRs and understand on deep level what it takes to create a good one. Very complex very time consuming and with no financial benefit. Not to mention would have to understand how human hearing works - one of most important things. Measurements that go beyond our hearing are meaningless
 

Chrispy

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I'll ask the question again. Are there any media outlets doing more comprehensive testing?
Again, that's not the point. I'll take what I can get for sure. No one's doing it that I can tell, not sure there's even a suitable test rig....

I'd just like to see more rigorous multich testing is all to see what possibilities are of exploring in more detail.
 
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