PC, Dirac Live, SMSL Sanskrit 10th mkII, Schiit Saga S, AUDIOPHONICS HPA-S250NC and Lintons. Need help/advice.

[PeterNL]

Hello everyone.
I would like to ask for advice/help with my current budget setup. Please check if everything is connected good enough to achieve best performance for the money or maybe there is a space for some improvements.
Setup include:
- PC Intel NUC with Jriver, Qobuz and Dirac Live.
- SMSL Sanskrit 10th mkII (max output 2.226Vrms measured on ASR) connected via USB (includes topping HS02)
- Schiit Saga S (bought yesterday like new for 100€ so couldn't resist)
- Audiophonics HPA-S250NC ( 2 x 250Wrms @ 4 Ohm 1kHz THD=1% @1.66V RMS) connected via RCA cables. 25.5dB gain and sensitivity:
XLR : 2x0.83V RMS
RCA : 1.66V RMS
- Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary (Erin measured sensitivity about 85dB @ 2.83v/1m)

My point is that after Dirac Room correction I have to set Negative gain -10dB to compensate/prevent digital clipping in Dirac sound processor and because of that, DAC output voltage is limited to approximately 0.7Vrms max so it will drive Audiophonics amp only to +/- 45 Watts per channel.
To get satisfying music level (75-90dB) I have to crank up the volume knob to 3-5 o'clock.
I have bought Schiit preamp mainly for safety reasons and also to avoid loosing resolution while attenuating volume from smsl DAC or in digital domain.

What do you think guys ?
Leave it like that or maybe there is some other solution (like try to connect amp via RCA-XLR adapter/cable...buy different preamp with high gain...) ?

 

[ppataki]

In my setup I just control volume in Jriver using its Internal Volume control
It is a 64-bit precision digital volume control upstream in the signal path with a Volume Protection feature so you can't accidentally turn it up
That way one does not need a pre-amp, just connect the DAC (with volume control turned off or on Max) and the power amp (with volume control turned off) directly

 

[PeterNL]

In my setup I just control volume in Jriver using its Internal Volume control
It is a 64-bit precision digital volume control upstream in the signal path with a Volume Protection feature so you can't accidentally turn it up
That way one does not need a pre-amp, just connect the DAC (with volume control turned off or on Max) and the power amp (with volume control turned off) directly

I understand but...this setup is also used as multimedia center for me, my daughter (10YO) and my wife. Most of the time, we listen music via Qobuz, Tidal and YT and also watching video clips and movies on Netflix and Prime. All those services have much different sound levels and it is easier for my family members just to grab remote controller when source is too loud or too low (mainly on YouTube). I know that I can use WDM from Jriver and also apply loudness levels, I've tried it before, but experienced some problems with combination with Dirac Live and Qobuz app using Jriver WDM.
Also I don't use Jriver anymore since my NAS got broken.
Knowing that my amp is able to throw out 250W per channel but I am using only 45 is also not really nice for my perception when sometimes I want to listen few songs at the concert levels :/

 

[ppataki]

this setup is also used as multimedia center for me, my daughter (10YO) and my wife.

We do the same
10YO and 8YO girls + my wife; they are all fluent now with Jriver and Tidal using the wireless keyboard and mouse
But of course I understand that this might not be the most optimal solution for everybody

Maybe in your case a remote controllable pre-amp is a better solution

 

[PeterNL]

We do the same
10YO and 8YO girls + my wife; they are all fluent now with Jriver and Tidal using the wireless keyboard and mouse
But of course I understand that this might not be the most optimal solution for everybody

Maybe in your case a remote controllable pre-amp is a better solution

Could this work ?

Audiophonics MPA-S250NC(XLR) fed by unbalanced (RCA) DAC ?

Dear Members, one of my friends would like to buy the aforementioned amplifier, the RCA version. Is it a viable option for him to simply buy the XLR version for future-proofness and use it without any additional (pricey) electronics via RCA->XLR adapter 'til he has the money for a true...

www.diyaudio.com

Via RCA to XLR I would be able to feed amplifier almost to the maximum power as side effect (0.7Vrms). SNR will be probably worse but...
Is this working like that ?

 

[ppataki]

Could this work ?

Audiophonics MPA-S250NC(XLR) fed by unbalanced (RCA) DAC ?

Dear Members, one of my friends would like to buy the aforementioned amplifier, the RCA version. Is it a viable option for him to simply buy the XLR version for future-proofness and use it without any additional (pricey) electronics via RCA->XLR adapter 'til he has the money for a true...

www.diyaudio.com

Via RCA to XLR I would be able to feed amplifier almost to the maximum power as side effect (0.7Vrms). SNR will be probably worse but...
Is this working like that ?

A floating Pin3 (cold) connection might work but I will let other members with more knowledge on electronics comment on that
I have managed to connect unbalanced sources to balanced amps like that - for me it worked fine back at that time

 

[PeterNL]

A floating Pin3 (cold) connection might work but I will let other members with more knowledge on electronics comment on that
I have managed to connect unbalanced sources to balanced amps like that - for me it worked fine back at that time

I will give a try.

 

[JeremyFife]

So, this is a bit out of my expertise ... hoping others will clarify.

As I read it, because you set a -10dB gain adjustment in software then your output voltage into the rest of your system is limited and that causes you volume problems.
Do you actually have a problem with volume? If your system goes loud enough for you then it doesn't really matter what is happening with gain - as long as nothing is clipping etc.

Is that -10dB adjustment required? Is that a big change, sounds like it to me although I don't really know. Do you have other options in your DSP to adjust that?

 

[PeterNL]

So, this is a bit out of my expertise ... hoping others will clarify.

As I read it, because you set a -10dB gain adjustment in software then your output voltage into the rest of your system is limited and that causes you volume problems.
Do you actually have a problem with volume? If your system goes loud enough for you then it doesn't really matter what is happening with gain - as long as nothing is clipping etc.

Is that -10dB adjustment required? Is that a big change, sounds like it to me although I don't really know. Do you have other options in your DSP to adjust that?

I don't really have a problem with volume, most of the time 75-85dB SPL is fine for me but from my calculations, at 0.7V I will get only 45Watts per channel, which means that Lintons are going to reach around 94dB SPL.
Once a time I like to listen much louder or demonstrate my friends (which usually pay for audio equipment 10k+€) how budget system (I paid for everything + few GIK acoustic panels no more than 1200€), how good it is.
Also for very high dynamic recordings or Hans Zimmer, I feel like I need more than 45Watts of power.

-10dB negative gain is not required but I found this value safe (-6dB on many recordings I could see that meters in Dirac sound processor are reaching the top and leave red bar above which probably means that clipping was detected.)
At this moment if I want to play very loud I just turn off Dirac Correction.
So I think that like in headphones PEQ (oratory1990) you have to compensate boosted frequencies to avoid clipping and distortions.

 

[ZolaIII]

JRiver is 100 steps 50 dB and works fine. If you want to match levels you do close to peek V unfiltered rew measurements and match it to filtered at lets say 700 Hz to 1 KHz. I do so for EBU R128. Don't use Dirac myself I do it by hand (convoler, PEQ & effect's). If NUC is on Window's you can use WDM driver for pretty much anything and there is remote for JRiver rest you use native apps (EBU works only locally and apps are mess regarding equal loudness LUFS).
For Dirac or something else you do high 70's dB programme (desired level) calibration (flat natural room slop down in highs). And that's for the 85~88 dB (on UMIK in REW with calibration file for it) from there you enable equal loudness compensation in JRiver and use it for volume control. I don't use streaming most of the time, have my own DLNA server for music (similar to your NUC) but use it differently. JRemote 2 app is rural (easy to get a hand on) but it still works (you have to adjust volume on screen it doesn't work on buttons but maybe it's better that way) and on phone or other system to stream such way.

Edit: even with a best effort you will find dreadful done materials both ways over compressed (90's till now loudness war's) or with too great DR (TXT cinema) and you won't be able to do much if you don't have them in friendly enough form for normalisation data to be written to. It's a mess no one will really be able to unfold if not enforced (and partly it is for EBU 128 -23 LUFS) in EU to broadcasters which is fine and for cinema movies (24 dB DR).

 

[PeterNL]

I already have ordered RCA XLR Cordial cable, was cheap and will be delivered tomorrow.
I will also keep Schiit preamplifier for in the case of emergency (manual volume +RC) for example it happened twice when windows has started but didn't load audio drivers properly (instead of running in WDM or ASIO connected to Dirac processor which also crashed and so the -10dB preamp gain was not included, windows loaded default direct sound at 100%. Volume on DAC was set to -10dB attenuation while my daughter opened YT to watch something and you can imagine how scared she was at that moment.
I have no problems with my routine, every time windows starts, I check always which audio drivers are loaded and make sure that Dirac processor is chosen as primary audio device.

I also have been using Jremote, it's working very good for me. Also using wireless keyboard with potmeter, but sometimes keyboard is loosing connection or goes to sleep mode.

My NAS with DLNA died few months ago (faulty J-series Intel processor) so I am not using Jriver until I will get NAS fixed.

 

[JeremyFife]

I don't really have a problem with volume, most of the time 75-85dB SPL is fine for me but from my calculations, at 0.7V I will get only 45Watts per channel, which means that Lintons are going to reach around 94dB SPL.
Once a time I like to listen much louder or demonstrate my friends (which usually pay for audio equipment 10k+€) how budget system (I paid for everything + few GIK acoustic panels no more than 1200€), how good it is.
Also for very high dynamic recordings or Hans Zimmer, I feel like I need more than 45Watts of power.

-10dB negative gain is not required but I found this value safe (-6dB on many recordings I could see that meters in Dirac sound processor are reaching the top and leave red bar above which probably means that clipping was detected.)
At this moment if I want to play very loud I just turn off Dirac Correction.
So I think that like in headphones PEQ (oratory1990) you have to compensate boosted frequencies to avoid clipping and distortions.

Sounds like, for most of the time, this is not really a problem. I do understand you wanting to get the best out of your system though, even when that is volume that you don't use.
I'd certainly try dropping that -10dB adjustment to -6dB. Clipping will be audible so if you don't hear it it doesn't matter.
You can also add a high pass filter (say 40Hz, worth experimenting up to 50Hz) to reduce the strain on your Amp trying to reproduce frequencies that the speakers can't - that should give you an SPL boost too. Your Dirac settings may already deal with that but worth checking.

I'm not clear how changing cables can make any difference if the problem is that your PC output into your DAC is a lower voltage than you want. Sounds as if you need something to increase gain. You might need an old school preamplifier.

Don't know if that can be managed in software, I would have thought so but don't know how.

You say that you turn off Dirac when you listen load. Does it still sound good? Are you sure that your Dirac settings are correct, no big attempts to boost bass?

Too many questions, not enough help!

 

[PeterNL]

Sounds like, for most of the time, this is not really a problem. I do understand you wanting to get the best out of your system though, even when that is volume that you don't use.
I'd certainly try dropping that -10dB adjustment to -6dB. Clipping will be audible so if you don't hear it it doesn't matter.
You can also add a high pass filter (say 40Hz, worth experimenting up to 50Hz) to reduce the strain on your Amp trying to reproduce frequencies that the speakers can't - that should give you an SPL boost too. Your Dirac settings may already deal with that but worth checking.

I'm not clear how changing cables can make any difference if the problem is that your PC output into your DAC is a lower voltage than you want. Sounds as if you need something to increase gain. You might need an old school preamplifier.

Don't know if that can be managed in software, I would have thought so but don't know how.

You say that you turn off Dirac when you listen load. Does it still sound good? Are you sure that your Dirac settings are correct, no big attempts to boost bass?

Too many questions, not enough help!

No high pass filter for me, I can't sacrifice lowest notes and already have few different Dirac presets/curves.

How changing cables can make any difference ?
I will see tomorrow Don't get me wrong, I am not cables believer, but understand just little bit balanced architecture so it should work, PC/DAC will stay unchanged, same output voltage 0.7V, but connecting via XLR to the amplifier should dubbel the voltage and unfortunately also noise, but I can sacrifice few dB noise to get more power at the same DAC voltage (see Audiophonics sensitivity via RCA vs XLR).
We will see

Dirac settings are correct so far as I know. I'm using Dirac few years.
When I drop negative preamp values under -10, REW also detects clippings during measurements.
No, no big attempts with boosting low frequencies, I am more focused to calm the peaks down.

Here is my first thread:

Wharfedale Linton Heritage with Audiophonics HPA-S250NC first REW meauserements

Hi ASR community. I have recently changed my whole audio setup, went from Topping D10s, Moon I-1 (Moon 250i) and Audio Physic Yara Evolution to SMSL Sanskrit 10th mk2, Audiophonics HPA-S250NC and Wharfedale Linton Heritage. I am very happy of my new setup but my room i just a small living room...

audiosciencereview.com

Wharfedale Linton Heritage with Audiophonics HPA-S250NC first REW meauserements

Little update, all panels are already hanging on the walls (2x GIK 244 front walls, behind the speakers, 1x GIK mega bass trap on the left wall close to the speaker and 2x GIK 244 on rear wall corners). I feel a big sound improvement, better clarity, more details, tighter bass, wider soundstage...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[JeremyFife]

I'll be interested in your findings - good luck!

No worries that you are happy with the DSP, it's your system and you know how you've set it up.

I still think that your DAC will output the same voltage, regardless of the cable, but nothing beats actual experimentation.

 

[PeterNL]

I'll be interested in your findings - good luck!

No worries that you are happy with the DSP, it's your system and you know how you've set it up.

I still think that your DAC will output the same voltage, regardless of the cable, but nothing beats actual experimentation.

Yes DAC will output the same voltage off course.
But balanced architecture of Ncore Amp via XLR inputs should be twice sensitive like specs says:
-Full power at:
XLR : 2x0.83V RMS
RCA : 1.66V RMS
To be honest I'm curious too

 

[JeremyFife]

I see what you mean about the bass btw, you get good SPL down to 30. I wouldn't touch that either!