Best 'hi-fi' audiophile bookshelf type speaker to pull mixing/mastering duties in a studio?

[Koeitje]

On paper, the Kii are not a better option.
Any proof of why one should be worried about the Pascal modules?

The 8C are IMHO one of the most versatile speakers out there. I am not sure if they are for nearfield but in the midfield, there are few speakers out there that match their performance. On top of that they are capable of producing 105 dB @ 35 Hz in a room, this is loud. Very loud.
Read this review, with numerous, serious, measurements.

I'm just saying if you are worried about amplifier quality the Kii Three has better amplifiers in it. Because it uses NCore class-D, which is superior to anything Pascal produces. If it matters for the end result...probably not.

 

[BostonJack]

That is the premise. There we get into a problem because in real world it is impossible to make every material act the same and by that measure the same. Especially true for tweeters that have to cover a very large part of intended frequency spectrum (2kHz-20kHz). Not too much of a problem if you use hard materials but soft domes are prone to problems in that sense since you can't make the break up go over 20kHz. All you can do is try to dampen the fabric enough and in the right places to mitigate unwanted properties of the material.

EDIT: Or try to cope with it by fixing the top of the dome (that's how Vifa XT emerged) but it brings different set of problems.

Not to nit pick, as I'm learning from your description of the tweeter material, BUT, 2kHz to 20 kHz is 3.mumble octaves, while 40Hz to ~2kHz is 5.mumble octaves. It appears to not be a problem of tweeter covering a large range of frequencies, but your argument that pushing soft dome break up past 20 kHz is a tough materials problem.

I admit that I'm Jonesing for Be tweeters in a not-quite-rational, I'm attached to the concept way.

I've ordered my DTX-MON plans today, its going to take me a while to build them, as I have to get access to tools through a local Maker space: thickness planer, jointer/planer, and table saw. I'm hoping to be able to submit to Amir for measurement, but realistically this is going to be a slow build. There is a outside chance that I will use a CNC mill to do the baffle and passive membrane. It looks like its all circular cuts and careful use of a jig and router is more straightforward, and adequate.

I haven't built speakers since doing a "HiFi Answers" 4 way folded labyrinth design circa 1980.

 

[Zvu]

We do need only those three octaves but we need them as clean as possible. That is why Kef, Vivid audio, B&W (there are probably more manufacturers i am not aware of) developed hard dome tweeters with breakup at 40kHz or higher. Artefacts, such as dome resonances, are pushed to the highest possible frequencies at the end of the spectrum. I haven't meant by that the task for midwoofer is easy. It is the reason three and four way loudspeakers exist.

Congratulations. I'm looking forward to read about your diy journey. It's like riding a bike - you can't forget it

 

[Pearljam5000]

Did that guy receive his new 8351B?where are the impressions?

 

[andreasmaaan]

The audible differences between a metal dome with a resonance at 30kHz and one with a resonance at 40kHz will be marginal, if any. Well and truly in the last 1-2% of diminishing returns territory.

I'm not denying that some diaphragm materials are technically better than others, nor that certain design attributes are objectively an improvement over others, nor that these things are of technical interest and importance (of course they are).

However, these differences we're talking about here (and even the differences between any well-engineered soft dome and a well-engineered hard dome) are just not highly relevant to perceived sound quality in a complete loudspeaker system.

@Zvu re: your comparison between the T25D and T25S, I honestly don't know why Bliesma released that S version - it's a disaster, and not representative of what a soft dome is capable of. To go back to the SS 970000, which is actually a good example of a soft dome, we have a slight ripple in the frequency response around the break-up, which is easily EQ'd out (as it appears in the same place both on and off-axis).

Now, at risk of seeming a hypocrite here, I'll admit that I don't tend to use soft dome tweeters because of the issues already discussed, and because metal domes that perform better are no longer necessarily more expensive. So yeh, I'll make choices in my designs based on what is objectively better. But I don't believe that these choices are significant at the end of the day in terms of sound quality. If the SS 97000, for example, were not more expensive than a few similarly performing, cheaper tweeters that happen to be metal/ceramic, I would happily use it.

I think we are getting into objectivist audio nervosa when we start to split hairs over these things. At the end of the day, if the tweeter can be made to have a flat frequency response, a controlled off-axis response, and no excessive distortion in its passband, it can be made to perform as part of an excellent loudspeaker.

Those are my 2c

 

[Zvu]

Me like your 2 cents

 

[auraluxstudio]

Did that guy receive his new 8351B?where are the impressions?

I did, but haven’t had a chance to use them yet. I am waiting on a pair of KH 310’s to arrive as well.

 

[auraluxstudio]

Another contender in the ring against the Neumann KH 310 is the Amphion Two18. Any thoughts on who would win this battle and why?

 

[q3cpma]

Another contender in the ring against the Neumann KH 310 is the Amphion Two18. Any thoughts on who would win this battle and why?

Look at https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...2-wege-monitor-mit-externer-endstufe-im-test/. Even if this isn't the same model, this tells me Amphion simply isn't playing in the same field. Their website is also full of BS like All products have time-adjusted drivers with crossovers at a low 1600 Hz. This leads into point-source-like behaviour (to be honest, it kind of does, but this is still misleading compared to actual point sources) or the usual red flag of testimony and media reviews blurb and lacks off-axis and distorsion data. All of this to sell an overpriced speaker with a massive 500 Hz resonance, a very early tweeter breakup and a significative amount of THD/IMD.

 

[auraluxstudio]

Look at https://www.soundandrecording.de/eq...2-wege-monitor-mit-externer-endstufe-im-test/. Even if this isn't the same model, this tells me Amphion simply isn't playing in the same field. Their website is also full of BS like All products have time-adjusted drivers with crossovers at a low 1600 Hz. This leads into point-source-like behaviour (to be honest, it kind of does, but this is still misleading compared to actual point sources) or the usual red flag of testimony and media reviews blurb and lacks off-axis and distorsion data. All of this to sell an overpriced speaker with a massive 500 Hz resonance, a very early tweeter breakup and a significative amount of THD/IMD.

That review wasn't bad at all...?

 

[infinitesymphony]

The darker sound of the Neumann is a result of the different waveguides and thus higher upper directivity and was the reason for me to replace my desktop Genelec with pair of KH as for daily listening I prefer a less analytical voicing.

That's an interesting take on it and a reasonable decision. Like others I'm hoping we see more KHs measured here at ASR because I see these as the closest competitors to Genelec right now. I suspect not everyone would fall in love with Genelecs even though they might have better performance for the reason you mentioned.

for the description, small bookself for recording studio with 10" max size..

10" is an incredibly small studio. You might have a few inches left over if you use Fostex 3" drivers.

What about Dynaudio? They don’t seem to get much love.

I once fell in love with a pair of Dynaudio BM15As, which were the midfields in a nice control room. They made everything sound so lush and musical. I mixed the album on them. Then I listened to the album on my home system, on my girlfriend's system, in my car, and on several pairs of headphones. I had to remix the entire album. The speakers just didn't translate, probably due to the same thing that made them so nonfatiguing.

Here's the measurements of HR824mk1.

View attachment 89451

View attachment 89452

View attachment 89453

Note: Current is Gen 2, called HR824mk2.

These old workhorses deserve to be measured at ASR. For the longest time, if you couldn't afford Genelecs, you'd get these. The last time I did a budget shootout I found the HR824mk2s to sound pretty good, with maybe a hair more bass tilt than the mk1s.

 

[thewas]

That's an interesting take on it and a reasonable decision. Like others I'm hoping we see more KHs measured here at ASR because I see these as the closest competitors to Genelec right now. I suspect not everyone would fall in love with Genelecs even though they might have better performance for the reason you mentioned.

Although I did't say that the Genelec have better performance, as lower directivity isn't for me such a point but rather neutral variable to match different room acoustics, listening distances and listening tastes.

 

[auraluxstudio]

And here we are...

 

[infinitesymphony]

Oh, to have your budget.

You'll have to let us know what you think about the Genelec 8351B vs. Neumann KH310A because I can't think of any other rooms with both.

Just eyeballing, it looks like your workstation desk may need to back up into the room to be in the middle of the triangles, and the KH310As may need some downward tilt. May also watch out for sub resonances having them on a thin shelf.

For 2 subs, Harman suggest the optimal placement is one sub each against the front and back wall if the room allows:

 

[auraluxstudio]

Oh, to have your budget.

You'll have to let us know what you think about the Genelec 8351B vs. Neumann KH310A because I can't think of any other rooms with both.

Just eyeballing, it looks like your workstation desk may need to back up into the room to be in the middle of the triangles, and the KH310As may need some downward tilt. May also watch out for sub resonances having them on a thin shelf.

For 2 subs, Harman suggest the optimal placement is one sub each against the front and back wall if the room allows:

View attachment 90047

I have an acoustician friend that setup my room including treatment. For the small size that it is I have an astonishing measurement (+- 2dB) at the mix position from 20-20. Thanks though.

 

[EAXAE]

And here we are...

That's illegal.

 

[q3cpma]

And here we are...

View attachment 90036

Now that I think of it, the Ones' horizontal orientation may be better due to greater LF directivity control along the longest dimension.

 

[Pearljam5000]

And here we are...

View attachment 90036

I'm drooling already, when are we going to get first impressions

 

[auraluxstudio]

I'm drooling already, when are we going to get first impressions

Spent all day yesterday just getting everything setup right in the room and doing measurements. Today I just started really getting to listen. All I can say is WOW! They are different enough in tamber to definitely warrant using as an A/B pair in a mixing/mastering scenario. The imaging and clarity of both is beautiful. The smoothness of the frequency response of both is spooky good.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Great to hear @auralux