Beresford Caiman SEG Review (Stereo DAC)

[Mike4242]

Just need a Proac speaker, Sugden amplifier and anything with a bloody Wolfson dac to be measured and then we have the full set. Must be measured together.... That "legendary" synergy.

Actually the Proacs and Sugdens do sound pretty good never heard them together though and as for Wolfson DAC did sound ok to me but sure better now. Synergy is an interesting idea , my friends Naim power amp sounds pretty naff yet tame it with Harbeth speaker and it becomes listenable for sustained periods . That’s probably not synergy though just rectification

 

[Giuanniello]

Hello,

my first post here, I happened to hit ASR by casually looking for the SEG's reviews and, oh my, destroyed!!!

I got one like 3 years ago, Stan also sold me first rev of the Dorado (...), I hate cables, lights and superfluous stuff and as such the thing looks plain horrible to me not to mention the thin gold paint job which makes it even worse not to add the led which make it always feel like xmas...

Back in time, as stated along this thread, it got many praises for quality vs cost and after many readings and budget considerations along with a very flexible array of inputs (I use the two optical along with the usb) I got sold on it and bought; the Dorado broke in less than a week and got one back, as said several times, labelling is confusing, 12V-15V (!!!), only Stan knows...

I once made a listening test, CD playing on my old but improved Sony CD-P X505ES, optical to the DAC, switching the preamp knob from DAC to CD, the Sony is way more pleasant to my ears nonetheless almost 30 years old (bought in 1991, went all the way 200Km off of home to get it), sure I had a skilled tech to make some upgrades to the output stage but, still, subjective impression is that I like it better.

Back to the SEG, "Sound Signatures" (...), really? Press and hold, remember how many blinks = what...

I can't really judge sound as I never got another DAC but, inputs flexibility aside, I won't buy it again.

Same experience with clicks on bitrate change, I listen to compilations and when next tune has a different bitrate I hear the click which is annoying, I wrote Stan who said, after quite some attempts, a new firmware won't probably fix it (I run FW 2.9 but gave it one last chance and ordered the rev.5 in the hope it can still keep up for a bit before I move on).

Long story short, why not to put it all in a single enclosure??? Really, a mess of cables, power brick (no linear PSU here!!!) to Dorado, Dorado too SEG... really, what is into that little brick which couldn't be fit into the ugly SEG case and sell the whole for a few pounds more?

Details, SEG's and Dorado's switches inverted, may sound silly as one can open the case and revert it but it's also little details which make a reputation

Do any of you think there is a way to improve the sound of the thing or better leave it there and go past it? By the way, I am curious to see what is inside the Dorado, I think that since it got cold and rainy (nope, not in the UK, Italy here, southern Italì) I'll plug the not-so-audiophile brick straight to the SEG and open the Dorado to find out what does the magics...

Have a great weekend and thanks for the review


Giovanni

p.s. as expected, a couple transistors and a bunch of caps...
p.p.s. the switch can't be switched upside down to match the SEG's orientation, details, details...

 

[Giuanniello]

Conclusion
Using different power sources has no impact on performance of this DAC. Re-testing did show thermal instability though with much worse performance when dead cold. FYI I do let audio products warm up a bit before testing and hence the reason I did not see this issue in the original review. As far as I am concerned, this second round of testing shows more problems with this DAC than original review indicated.

We have proven once again that fieldling with power sources, conditioners, etc. is of no value, just as fundamentals of electrical engineering indicates. That is, to the extent the device has its own internal regulators and post filters, messing with the input DC quality is of no value. This assumes Dorado has done something to clean up the DC which is not a given. Likely it has its own switching power supplies and such that could actually add noise, not reduce it.

In the meanwhile I decide what can I afford to take place of the SEG you almost convinced me to sell the Dorado, will look to find somebody who might take it...

 

[Mike4242]

In the meanwhile I decide what can I afford to take place of the SEG you almost convinced me to sell the Dorado, will look to find somebody who might take it...

Hi I am also a Seg owner and am going to take my Seg to a venue in Stourbridge in May to blind test listen against a Topping I hope if one appears of similar £250 price. I like the sound of my Seg ( Choosen after listening audition v a Rega and an Audiolab Q DAC) in my system . I will not be able to take my Crofts but hoping others going will probably have decent amps to do the comparison. I to find the thump through speakers a bit annoying. Looking forward to the comparison although ideally would like to listen to better Dacs tbh .

 

[Giuanniello]

Did anybody experience some change after firmware upgrade of the SEG? Mine is v2.9 and waiting for v5 till I can finally get a better whole DAC to put the Caiman to different use.

Grazie

 

[Mike4242]

I can’t answer your question but it has prompted me to look at what this upgrade costs and when it came out can’t immediately see that info. If you have this done let me know how it sounds. Really keen to hear BCS v. Topping D30 or higher model . Might even try to ship my decent Crofts along for the comparison.

 

[Giuanniello]

I am waiting for the delivery, dunno how long it will take as now England and Italy not any longer part of the EU so it might take longer than expected cause of customs, will try and listen to couple tracks I know with old firmware and then swap with the new one in the hope something gets better especially the very annoying click on bitrate change, if there is any specific test you want me to go through please feel free to ask.

After reading this whole thread I got down to the point that the little brick, especially after opening it, is worth nothing and the SEG very much probably not the miracle it was supposed to be so, not this year for sure as other audio related stuff in the process, in the future it will have to leave room to something else and for sure no fancy external bricks ;-)

 

[Danddd]

@Giuanniello How do you get the updates? Look, if the SEG sounds good to you, you have the option to ignore the measurements. I have it in a secondary system and it helped improve the sound to my ears over the Apple Express.

 

[Giuanniello]

I have nothing else to compare the SEG to nor my setup is very discerning I guess but I can tell that if I listen to a CD and I switch from analog output on the player to the DAC I better prefer the built in converter of my ancient Sony ES CD player.
This said not matter of numbers, I am a passionate photographer and have a couple lenses which on the charts are close to garbage but render beautifully, what the numbers say with regards to the SEG, by the way, is that the external brick is not worth any improvement, a bunch of caps and a 7812 and 7815 with a few resistors, there is people who screams to miracle when they add such a thing...

I am working at a class A power amp to mate to my ancient Audio Research SP9, next will be a solid state preamp and then a decent DAC, the SEG will be mating a second setup.

@Danddd d Updates are in the form of an eprom which Stan sells rather than allow a DIY firmware update, this way he can make extra 10 pounds, whatever...

 

[NiagaraPete]

Maybe sound signature was not the correct term , not all things that measure well sound great (some class D amps? ) and conversely some that don’t measure so well sound fine ( some valve products). I am not sure about the global footprint connected with the arguement about buy it to try it and then ship it back if you dont like it though. But I am a bit old skool , like to take my time with a dem preferably in my room with my own equipment. Although I did take my amps to Bristol and Burton to try speakers out. I am not sure we are going to agree on the if it measures fine it will sound fine to our respective ears. Will find someone with a Topping d30 pro to let me borrow to try

Where can you dem a Beresford, or Topping or SMSL? With this site we have a 3rd party testing that proves products are transparent.

Sorry your ears aren't a good test of DACS.

 

[NiagaraPete]

I have nothing else to compare the SEG to nor my setup is very discerning I guess but I can tell that if I listen to a CD and I switch from analog output on the player to the DAC I better prefer the built in converter of my ancient Sony ES CD player.
This said not matter of numbers, I am a passionate photographer and have a couple lenses which on the charts are close to garbage but render beautifully, what the numbers say with regards to the SEG, by the way, is that the external brick is not worth any improvement, a bunch of caps and a 7812 and 7815 with a few resistors, there is people who screams to miracle when they add such a thing...

I am working at a class A power amp to mate to my ancient Audio Research SP9, next will be a solid state preamp and then a decent DAC, the SEG will be mating a second setup.

@Danddd d Updates are in the form of an eprom which Stan sells rather than allow a DIY firmware update, this way he can make extra 10 pounds, whatever...

Stan is a wonderful guy. His tech is 20 years old...

 

[Mike4242]

Where can you dem a Beresford, or Topping or SMSL? With this site we have a 3rd party testing that proves products are transparent.

Sorry your ears aren't a good test of DACS.

Slightly confused by this comment . Are are just trying to say measurements must tell the whole story with regard to DAC. So if DAC measures well and you don’t like the sound it makes then by definition you don’t like a transparent sound ( transparent seems to be being given a qualitative meaning) . Presumably though you are ok with your ears being used as a basis for other items of equipment where measurements may not tell the whole story? Not trying to be a pain just trying to clarify

I would genuinely like to listen to the makes suggested ( quite happy to do blind tests ) as in personally only buy after listening and 90% of time in the context of my own system .

I chose my DAC v an Audiolab Q DAC and a Rega DAC but not blind testing so not very scientific. I just listened over the course of a few days and chose the DAC that I found made me want to listen to music the most so was applying my preferences for the sound I liked I must have been.

I will be only to happy to ditch my current DAC if a cheaper one sounds better to me as I can then afford to buy more vinyl ). I really hope any one who reads this can bring a Topping or SMLS to Himbleton to compare . Sadly I am not sure if I will bring my Crofts and definitely not my Beauhorns though as they are fairly large. But if an DAC piques my interest I will then listen to it with my own equipment if I can arrange a demo .

 

[sq225917]

Some of us want measured neutrality and low distortion and the only judge of this is measurements, not your ears. Others want whatever they like, regardless of anything else.

And in between those two groups lies a broad spectrum.

Neither is right or wrong. But saying one thing and doing another is pointless.

 

[Mike4242]

Some of us want measured neutrality and low distortion and the only judge of this is measurements, not your ears. Others want whatever they like, regardless of anything else.

And in between those two groups lies a broad spectrum.

Neither is right or wrong. But saying one thing and doing another is pointless.

What does saying one thing but doing another mean though and who does this mean in this context ?

Are you saying if you value measurements above all else (low distortion /neutrality ) then you essentially listen with your eyes . If you value music as a listening experience you use a different sense your ears . After all hi fi equipment is bought for a reason and that should not be just to look at it unless that is why people decide to to buy it and that is fine if that is their preference . I guess the same logic could apply to lots of experiences that involve our senses. You cannot avoid subjectivity when people have different perceptions of what sounds right to them

I think the ASR site has a value and that could be to tell you what measures well and is reliable ( accepting the criteria used ) .Maybe then to use as it as a way to shortlist for a listening test if it's possible to arrange one it not for sure go ahead and buy based on measurements . Maybe then also check if you can read a review in a Hi Fi mag . If both are in accord you have the start of help to make a choice .
I put myself out when I buy stuff and that is my choice , frequently shipping my amps along with me and travelling some distance or even better seeing if someone will bring to me if I pay petrol costs. Have met some lovely people this way .

I wonder how many things get bought and moved on quickly if you just buy based on somebody else's review either ASR or a magazine review (with product preferences).

 

[NiagaraPete]

Slightly confused by this comment . Are are just trying to say measurements must tell the whole story with regard to DAC. So if DAC measures well and you don’t like the sound it makes then by definition you don’t like a transparent sound ( transparent seems to be being given a qualitative meaning) . Presumably though you are ok with your ears being used as a basis for other items of equipment where measurements may not tell the whole story? Not trying to be a pain just trying to clarify

I would genuinely like to listen to the makes suggested ( quite happy to do blind tests ) as in personally only buy after listening and 90% of time in the context of my own system .

I chose my DAC v an Audiolab Q DAC and a Rega DAC but not blind testing so not very scientific. I just listened over the course of a few days and chose the DAC that I found made me want to listen to music the most so was applying my preferences for the sound I liked I must have been.

I will be only to happy to ditch my current DAC if a cheaper one sounds better to me as I can then afford to buy more vinyl ). I really hope any one who reads this can bring a Topping or SMLS to Himbleton to compare . Sadly I am not sure if I will bring my Crofts and definitely not my Beauhorns though as they are fairly large. But if an DAC piques my interest I will then listen to it with my own equipment if I can arrange a demo .

Yes that is exactly what I said. Unless you’re doing proper blind tests you sitting at home listening is of no value.

 

[sq225917]

I'm saying you either buy based on specs and wear it like a hairshirt, or buy based entirely on subjective feel.

Or most likely somewhere in between.

Or you say you buy on specs, but you can't walk the walk and end up hating it.

 

[Killingbeans]

p.s. as expected, a couple transistors and a bunch of caps...

As far as I can tell it's just two general-purpose linear voltage regulators ( +12v and +15v) and a few supporting components.

Also a handful of supercapacitors in series to match the voltage. I assume there's no SMD components on the backside of the PCB? If not, there's probably nothing to balance the charge on the supercapacitors, and one or two of them is being tortured.

BTW, any audio product that supposedly solve crucial problems simply by throwing supercacitors at them, is a red flag.

 

[JabbaLeChat]

Latecomer to this thread else I'd have pitched in earlier..

Beresford doesn't design anything(he doesn't have the know how), he just sells Technolink/JEC designed and made products from Taiwan, so if Technolink don't make it he doesn't sell it. It's low budget gear that doesn't measure particularly well, as the top post here shows.

The Caiman is a Technolink TC-7535 DAC with a USB input, uses a 16bit PCM-2702 dac chip. Their TC-7510 DAC using the PCM-1716 dac chip is a higher quality product.

Met him at his house in north London mid 2000s to buy a "Beresford" TC-7510 DAC, near the big Asian food hall in Colindale, he told me he used to work for a consumer electronics company in Wembley that went bust, can't remember the name, his late employer used Technolink for their manufacturing/rebadged products hence the product connection, iirc he was their stores manager.

Hth.

 

[NiagaraPete]

Latecomer to this thread else I'd have pitched in earlier..

Beresford doesn't design anything(he doesn't have the know how), he just sells Technolink/JEC designed and made products from Taiwan, so if Technolink don't make it he doesn't sell it. It's low budget gear that doesn't measure particularly well, as the top post here shows.

The Caiman is a Technolink TC-7535 DAC with a USB input, uses a 16bit PCM-2702 dac chip. Their TC-7510 DAC using the PCM-1716 dac chip is a higher quality product.

Met him at his house in north London mid 2000s to buy a "Beresford" TC-7510 DAC, near the big Asian food hall in Colindale, he told me he used to work for a consumer electronics company in Wembley that went bust, can't remember the name, his late employer used Technolink for their manufacturing/rebadged products hence the product connection, iirc he was their stores manager.

Hth.

Thanks for this input. You have confirmed something I had thought. The 7510 was a $200 dac but at the time it was not bad. Unlike the more expensive 7535 it did not click when the bitrate changed and their was no power thump turning it off and on.

 

[Purité Audio]

Latecomer to this thread else I'd have pitched in earlier..

Beresford doesn't design anything(he doesn't have the know how), he just sells Technolink/JEC designed and made products from Taiwan, so if Technolink don't make it he doesn't sell it. It's low budget gear that doesn't measure particularly well, as the top post here shows.

The Caiman is a Technolink TC-7535 DAC with a USB input, uses a 16bit PCM-2702 dac chip. Their TC-7510 DAC using the PCM-1716 dac chip is a higher quality product.

Met him at his house in north London mid 2000s to buy a "Beresford" TC-7510 DAC, near the big Asian food hall in Colindale, he told me he used to work for a consumer electronics company in Wembley that went bust, can't remember the name, his late employer used Technolink for their manufacturing/rebadged products hence the product connection, iirc he was their stores manager.

Hth.

I remember contacting JEC in the early days of PA they wouldn’t sell me the 7510 as Stan had exclusive rights then in the U.K. but any of their other models, the abuse I received from the Beresford faithful..
Keith