• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Battle of Google Pixel Headphone Dongles

D

Deleted member 3566

Guest
We can keep talking about what is best for sound quality.

We don't have to (or do), but you evidently want to. Sound quality is just one of many issues I mentioned regarding wireless audio. Price, the need to charge units all the time (and relying on them having battery), and also already existing wired headphones becoming obsolete, are other reasons.

The fact is this is a small minority and smartphone manufacturers won't give rat's ass about any of it. If wired headphones were that important to people, they would have stayed with their models that have it and supply-demand would have taken care of the rest.

How can supply-demand deal with it, when there are no alternatives? Tell me, if you can please, where iOS users who want a headphone jack are supposed to go when buying a new iPhone? iPhone XS doesn't have a jack. iPhone X from the year before doesn't have it. Nor does the iPhone 7 from the year before that. Unless you want to settle with older technology, you have no choice. Same is true for the Android phones. As a Pixel user who values the software experience of Pixels, I have no choice but to accept the lack of 3.5mm jack. Not because I want to, but because I have no choice. Your supply-demand argument is invalid here.

The supply-demand argument was however perfectly valid when 3.5mm jacks were universally used in smartphones, as it co-existed side-by-side with Bluetooth for year. What did supply-demand show there? That the users preferred wired headphones over wireless ones.

. Hi-fi forums can get so elitist at times - for us sound quality is paramount so the whole world must think like us otherwise they are they are just sheep.

The only elitist here is you yourself, who excuse negative decision-making from corporations at every turn, and refuse to acknowledge a simple principle of giving people choice. The discussion isn't about specifically the Hi-fi community, but consumers in general. They are no less happy about the removal of the jack.

As for what to expect of sound quality. Well, as a consumer, I expect the quality of any technology I use to improve over time. When the performance of the 3.5mm dongle from Google has actually regressed, not improved, I have every reason be unhappy about it. Likewise, when I'm forced over to a technology that I don't deem superior in every area, I have every reason to be unhappy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JJB70

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,905
Likes
6,155
Location
Singapore
Are you seriously sitting down and actively listening to you music on your phone? There are dedicated devices for that. A smartphone is not meant to be a dedicated hifi device. I find the expectations out of it really weird.

Yes. The DAC on my phone is transparent and the amplifier is perfectly good for enjoying FLAC files played via good headphones. I have quite an expensive Pioneer DAP and the difference between it and my phone is minimal. And Sony actually marketed the audio capabilities of the XZ Premium quite heavily in their promotional material for it. I'm in no hurry to change as it is a very competent DAP, a decent camera and is nicely made. Travelling a lot it is a lot more convenient not to faff about with a separate DAP or amplifier.
 

έχω δίκιο

Active Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Messages
249
Likes
282
How can supply-demand deal with it, when there are no alternatives?

The lack of demand is why there isn't a supply. The free market doesn't guarantee that everything anyone wants will be available for sale. There has to be a point on the projected demand curve where the manufacturer will profit; otherwise, the item (or item with a specific feature) won't be manufactured for sale (generally speaking -- there are exceptions for "halo products," loss-leader products, etc.).

In the case of headphone jacks, I fear that the inclusion of one is almost like a floppy drive on a computer -- it signifies to many consumers that the device is outdated.

That said, don't jump all over my ass (meaning my donkey, of course); I'm in favor of headphone jacks. I wish all phones came with them. I'd be fine with the phone being $20 more if it had the headphone jack. But I'm not representative of most customers, so I'm not likely to get what I want.
 

stunta

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2018
Messages
1,155
Likes
1,401
Location
Boston, MA
We don't have to (or do), but you evidently want to. Sound quality is just one of many issues I mentioned regarding wireless audio. Price, the need to charge units all the time (and relying on them having battery), and also already existing wired headphones becoming obsolete, are other reasons.



How can supply-demand deal with it, when there are no alternatives? Tell me, if you can please, where iOS users who want a headphone jack are supposed to go when buying a new iPhone? iPhone XS doesn't have a jack. iPhone X from the year before doesn't have it. Nor does the iPhone 7 from the year before that. Unless you want to settle with older technology, you have no choice. Same is true for the Android phones. As a Pixel user who values the software experience of Pixels, I have no choice but to accept the lack of 3.5mm jack. Not because I want to, but because I have no choice. Your supply-demand argument is invalid here.

The supply-demand argument was however perfectly valid when 3.5mm jacks were universally used in smartphones, as it co-existed side-by-side with Bluetooth for year. What did supply-demand show there? That the users preferred wired headphones over wireless ones.



The only elitist here is you yourself, who excuse negative decision-making from corporations at every turn, and refuse to acknowledge a simple principle of giving people choice. The discussion isn't about specifically the Hi-fi community, but consumers in general. They are no less happy about the removal of the jack.

As for what to expect of sound quality. Well, as a consumer, I expect the quality of any technology I use to improve over time. When the performance of the 3.5mm dongle from Google has actually regressed, not improved, I have every reason be unhappy about it. Likewise, when I'm forced over to a technology that I don't deem superior in every area, I have every reason to be unhappy.

No one is asking you to be not unhappy about it :) You are arguing that your unhappiness outweighs the millions of people who are buying the latest and greatest smartphones even though they don't have headphone jacks - are you suggesting that Evil-Corp forced them to go out and buy the newer phones? How? Some are still complaining that they want a physical keyboard. Some are complaining that they stopped making film cameras. Why did they force this digital thing down people's throats! Bloody corporate villains!

I personally don't care either way. I have the first generation Google Pixel which has a headphone jack (that I rarely use) and no one is forcing me to get the newest version yet*. A smartphone is a jack of many trades - its not an audiophile gadget or a device meant to make movie watching as good that at a cinema.

*I'll revisit it when Google stops pushing updates to it; I will be unhappy when they do but I will also understand that supporting a small user segment has its costs and profit-making businesses generally don't find good ROI in it. Its simple economics.
 
D

Deleted member 3566

Guest
Wait, what happened to my last two comments? Why were they deleted?
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,633
Likes
240,683
Location
Seattle Area
Wait, what happened to my last two comments? Why were they deleted?
If you post them this morning, they are lost as we moved the snapshot of the forum to the new hardware. Sorry about that.
 

Veri

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2018
Messages
9,598
Likes
12,040
If you post them this morning, they are lost as we moved the snapshot of the forum to the new hardware. Sorry about that.
Oh wow so that wasn't in my head :)
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,633
Likes
240,683
Location
Seattle Area
I originally thought we were going to lock the forum for the move. But the transfer went so quickly we didn't bother. It was about a 30 minute period where everyone's activity was lost.
 

Veri

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2018
Messages
9,598
Likes
12,040
While I am posting here, I have to more dongles to review. One is the Razor. And the other from Hidizs.

Would be interesting to have the apple one for comparison. I think it's like under $10?
 
D

Deleted member 3566

Guest
The lack of demand is why there isn't a supply.

This arguments is extremely simplistic and flawed. How are users supposed to demonstrate any demand, when no newer product of that company (like an iPhone) is coming with the headphone jack? Furthermore, there's more to a phone than a headphone jack; if people have the choice between a 3 year old iPhone with a jack, or a newer iPhone without a jack, choosing the latter does not say anything about the lack of demand for the jack. It just means that they prioritize the better display, better CPU, better GPU, better battery life, newer design, better camera, etc. more.

Also, BT was still an option when phones had 3.5mm jack. If there truly wasn't a demand for the 3.5mm, then why did the overwhelming majority of people still used wired, even after years upon years of BT and wireless earphone availability?

The argument of "supply/demand" wasn't even used by Google, Apple and others who removed the jack, simply because it wasn't their main motivation, nor is it very serious -- these companies would have been ridiculed with such a statement. Instead, Apple used arguments like "obsolete technology", "saving space" and "courage" to justify its actions. Google used "obsolescence". Razer used "bigger battery". All arguments that under closer scrutiny have no justification, and are more PR-driven. Nevertheless, none of these companies used "demand/supply" as an argument.

The cost argument doesn't make sense when we look at the relatively insignificant cost of producing a 3.5mm jack. It can even be compared to the 3.5mm adapters that most OEMs include in their box; do you really believe those DAC/Amp adapters (which are separate from the DAC/Amps that still exist in the phones, as they need them to drive the speakers), have made the cost cheaper for them? Of course not. What about the independent USB Type-C earphones, that come with their own, separate DAC/Amp as well, that Google has now included with their phones, as a response to the outrage of the lack of a 3.5mm adapter? Clearly, an argument can be made that the removal of the jack has made the phones more expensive, not cheaper.

Of course, cost is an argument here. But not in the way you present it, which is that the OEMs are reducing it by removing it. If anything, they are increasing their own profit, by removing the 3.5mm jack, as they force people to buy wireless earbuds. Wireless earbuds which these same companies conveniently sell overpriced in their stores (Airpods, Pixel Buds, Razer Hammerhead BT), etc. People rebuying the 3.5mm adapters, due to their own getting lost or not working, is also helping them make a profit. Wireless Apple audio products (AirPods and Beats) skyrocketed after the launch of the iPhone 7, and the lightning connector has been the best-selling product on places like Best Buy for years.

The free market doesn't guarantee that everything anyone wants will be available for sale.

This has nothing to do with a free market, so I don't understand why you bring that in. If you really want to discuss that topic, then we might as well mention how neither Apple or Google adhere to free market principles in many ways -- the overall economy as a whole is not particularly free. Not in their practice of products, nor in the technologies that they use today (which are almost all innovations that the public made and gifted to them, which they now profit out of -- completely breaking the "free market" discipline). For example the GUI, WiFi, the internet, CPU/GPUs (transistors), memory, camera sensors, AI, etc. are all innovations borne out of publicly-funded research (through places like MIT). How does free market come in there? What about when Google or Apple get subsidized by the state, whenever they want to build new data centers or make new start-ups; is that a "free market" as well?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
D

Deleted member 3566

Guest
No one is asking you to be not unhappy about it :) You are arguing that your unhappiness outweighs the millions of people who are buying the latest and greatest smartphones even though they don't have headphone jacks - are you suggesting that Evil-Corp forced them to go out and buy the newer phones? How?

What's up with your constant need to produce straw-mans (put words in my mouth), as well as repetition of arguments that have already been answered for? First off, I'm not arguing anything about my position relative to others; my argument has always been that people in general are unhappy. As for "the millions of people who are buying the latest and greatest", it's as I told you in my previous response; people are buying the latest and greatest", because that's how technology works. If you have an older iPhone that is getting obsolete in terms of battery life, camera, in speed, etc., and you need to buy a newer iPhone, what options do you with 3.5mm jack? None. If you want to buy a newer phone with the "latest and greatest" specs, you are forced to make do without a headphone jack. Same is true with Pixels, HTC phones, Huawei phones, etc. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Some are still complaining that they want a physical keyboard. Some are complaining that they stopped making film cameras. Why did they force this digital thing down people's throats! Bloody corporate villains!

1. New technologies for those two cases were better in three ways, as they were: 1. cheaper, 2. more practical and 3. technically superior. These factors can in fact be used as explanations/justifications for a newer solution becoming dominant.

For example digital cameras eventually overtake analogue film cameras in dynamic range, exposure, sharpness, motion, frame rates, etc. You could also store them in a small flash disk, and run them all the time (whereas with film cameras you had to exchange the roll all the itme), had smaller and much more portable cameras, and were cheaper to go around with. The last parts are very important, as they completely democratized the industry, by making it easier for amateur filmmakers to move up and make a career of it.

So let's look the 3.5mm jack vs. BT. 1. Are BT solutions cheaper than wired ones? No. 2. Are BT solutions more practical? Yes and no. Yes, in that you have no wire, no in that they run on very limited battery life, and need constant charging. 3. Are BT solutions technically superior? No. SQ is inferior, there's interference, there's connection loss, etc.

So BT is not even comparable to the examples you gave above. They're not even comparable to the floppy disc example that έχω δίκιο gave.

2. The introduction and success of digital cameras still didn't cancel out film cameras. Film directors are still very much free to use 35mm/70mm if they want to; and they do! Tarantino and Christopher Nolan use film in all of their movies. All the newer Star Wars and Mission Impossible movies were shot on film. So the option to decide is still very much there -- unlike with 3.5mm jack for consumers. BT was very much still there, alongside 3.5mm jack, yet people still went with wired earphones. This very clearly demonstrates what option people in general preferred.


A smartphone is a jack of many trades - its not an audiophile gadget or a device meant to make movie watching as good that at a cinema.

The fact that you can't even see the hypocrisy of this statement is hilarious. If a smartphone is "a jack of many trades", then it ought to have a 3.5mm jack.

Also, your attempt at associating a 3.5mm jack with "audiophiles" who want "movie watching as good at a cinema" is laughable. I guess my mother, my wife, my friends and the rest of the population, who all have/had more wired earpieces than wireless ones, are audiophiles as well? The headphone jack is more universal than BT audio.

I will be unhappy when they do but I will also understand that supporting a small user segment has its costs and profit-making businesses generally don't find good ROI in it. Its simple economics.

By what account do you claim that people using wired earpieces are "a small user segment" -- or rather, smaller than those with wireless ones? All the numbers show the opposite; in fact, wireless earphone purchases first shot up when phones stopped coming with headphone jacks. Proving my point about forcing people.

Also, the argument of ROI is simply not worth taking seriously, as a 3.5mm jacks hardly costs anything to put in phones, especially when compared to other components. And whatever you may argue it costs, it's still less than the 3.5mm adapter that they provide you in the box; certainly way less than the USB Type-C earphone Google now provides in the box (which is not just an earphone, but also has a separate DAC/Amp with it). How does that fit into your ROI "simple economics"? Oh wait, it doesn't. But I don't expect you to be aware of the logical fallacies in your arguments, which even a child can observe, as you seem completely uninterested in doing independent critique of this topic. You seem more motivated by your infallible, totalitarian loyalty to these corporations and their actions. In your belief that everything they do must be reasonable, you try to rationalize their action however way possible. No matter how nonsensical.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Veri

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2018
Messages
9,598
Likes
12,040
Let's not become another toxic audio forum, indeed :facepalm:
 

stunta

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2018
Messages
1,155
Likes
1,401
Location
Boston, MA
Everyone, can we go back to mostly talking about audio here? I say this as somebody who totally misses his 3.5mm jack, but the name of this site is "Audio Science Review" and not "The Dismal Science Review".

Apologies for derailing this thread. @Thomas savage, feel free to simulate a forum hardware move on my previous posts :)
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,633
Likes
240,683
Location
Seattle Area
Would be interesting to have the apple one for comparison. I think it's like under $10?
Can it be made to work on PC or android somehow? I don't have an iphone.
 

Veri

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2018
Messages
9,598
Likes
12,040
Can it be made to work on PC or android somehow? I don't have an iphone.

Oh yes, damn. You would need something accepting a lightning device... an iPhone or iPad.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,633
Likes
240,683
Location
Seattle Area
Oh yes, damn. You would need something accepting a lightning device... an iPhone or iPad.
What is the cheapest iPad that would work with it? And can I get bit-exact playback on it?

I also have a 2 year old Mac laptop. Don't remember the model. Do these work with that?
 

Timbo2

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
497
Likes
396
Location
USA
What is the cheapest iPad that would work with it? And can I get bit-exact playback on it?

I also have a 2 year old Mac laptop. Don't remember the model. Do these work with that?

My suggestion would be grab a used iPad off eBay - You'd want one that runs iOS 12 just for a little future proofing.

I've not played around with it, but my guess is Neutron will work and give you bit perfect and it supports the following sources:
- SMB/CIFS network device (NAS or PC, Samba shares);
- UPnP/DLNA media server;
- FTP server
 

Jimster480

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 26, 2018
Messages
2,895
Likes
2,055
Location
Tampa Bay
Razer phone... I really was considering that phone but I read tons of horrible things about the QC and the phones failing after only a couple months.
I wasn't ready to take a chance with that.
 
Top Bottom