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Battle of Google Pixel Headphone Dongles

έχω δίκιο

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This arguments[sic] is extremely simplistic and flawed.

No, my argument is insightful -- and much of that insight comes from a career in engineering that started more than a decade before your birth.

How are users supposed to demonstrate any demand, when no newer product of that company (like an iPhone) is coming with the headphone jack?

Talk about simplistic and flawed arguments! Headphone jacks didn't simultaneously dissappear from all phones in the market. Consumers who didn't like phones without headphone jacks could have put off upgrading or could have switched to competing phones that still had jacks. When sales didn't reflect either of those things happening in statistically significant numbers, other manufacturers also recognized that there was not sufficient demand to justify the inclusion of headphone jacks.

The argument of "supply/demand" wasn't even used by Google, Apple and others who removed the jack, simply because it wasn't their main motivation,

I'm pretty sure you didn't get a briefing from any of those companies before, during, or after the decision making process. They didn't show you their internal market research and analysis or share with you how they made the decisions. All you're going on is the marketing spin put out to the public.

nor is it very serious -- these companies would have been ridiculed with such a statement.

There are always people who will ridicule any statement they don't like, whether the statement is true or not. BGR.com had a good article on this:

BGR.com said:
What’s particularly noteworthy about the iPhone 7’s performance last quarter is that no one really seemed to care that the device shipped without a headphone jack. It may all seem like ancient history now, but Apple’s decision to remove the tried and true 3.5mm headphone jack was met with widespread ridicule this past September. Many were quick to characterize Apple’s design choice as arrogant and proof positive that the company was out of touch with its ever-growing user base. Others, meanwhile, took the strong position that Apple was making a huge mistake and that iPhone 7 sales would experience a significant dip.
...
As it turns out, Apple played the iPhone 7 launch just perfectly. By deciding to ship a free lighting to 3.5mm adapter inside of every iPhone, Apple was able to appease users who, I think it’s fair to say, have absolutely zero interest in ever using a pair of Apple branded white earbuds. This demographic of users aside, most everyone else seemingly didn’t even notice or care about the missing headphone jack.

Not only did users flock to the iPhone 7 in record numbers, but more users opted for Apple’s pricier Plus model than ever before. During Apple’s earnings conference call yesterday, Cook said that the iPhone 7 Plus is the most popular Plus model Apple has ever released.

So much for you and the rest of the armchair CEOs ridiculing the decision.

Instead, Apple used arguments like...

I didn't ask you what their marketing PR said. I explained that the decision was driven by supply and demand.

The cost argument doesn't make sense when we look at the relatively insignificant cost of producing a 3.5mm jack.

What was the cost for warranty service for headphone jacks that failed within the warranty period? How much did they spend on warranty repairs even though the damage was caused by the consumer running the protruding body of the headphone plug into something? What would the additional cost be to to seal against water intrusion at a headphone jack?

It can even be compared to the 3.5mm adapters that most OEMs include in their box...

What you fail to understand is that the inclusion of those has been a transitional thing, just as external USB floppy drives were sometimes bundled with laptops when built-infloppy drives were first eliminated. Now we see that the dongles are not being included by Apple:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...adphone-jack-dongle-with-new-iphones-anymore/

This has nothing to do with a free market, so I don't understand why you bring that in.

It has everything to do with a free market; I bring it up because I have a very good understanding of capitalism and economics.

Not in their practice of products, nor in the technologies that they use today (which are almost all innovations that the public made and gifted to them, which they now profit out of -- completely breaking the "free market" discipline). For example the GUI, WiFi, the internet, CPU/GPUs (transistors), memory, camera sensors, AI, etc. are all innovations borne out of publicly-funded research (through places like MIT). How does free market come in there?

It's a free market because all of the competitors have access to the fruits of the publicly funded research.

What about when Google or Apple get subsidized by the state, whenever they want to build new data centers or make new start-ups; is that a "free market" as well?

Yes, it is, just as it's a free market when they enjoy greater discounts on components than do manufacturers who buy in smaller quantities.

You seem to think that Apple, Google, Samsung, etc. make feature decisions willy nilly with no consideration of how it will affect sales and profits. Apple didn't become a trillion dollar company by ignoring what consumers wanted to buy and how features affected sales and profits.
 

Jimster480

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The funny thing is that headphone jacks are actually available on many of the 2018 flagships.
Because people were overall outraged at the removal of them... and phones that don't include them tend to sell very poorly (including the newer iPhones, which is why Apple is forced to raise the price of their garbage devices in order to maintain the same profit margins).
Apple lies about their sales though and lumps all of "iPhone" together, despite the majority of phones being sold are like iPhone 6/6S/7 at dirt cheap prices and apple is counting them as "sales" (even if they are coming from refurbs that people have turned in/abandoned).

Phones with Headphone Jacks:
LG G7
Samsung Galaxy S9, Note 9
Moto X4
OnePlus 6
Xiaomi Pocophone F1
Meizu 16
Moto G (6/5/4)
Moto E (5/4)
LG V30
HTC U12 Life
Oppo F9 Pro
ASUS ROG

Phones without Headphone Jacks:
Huawei Mate 20 Pro
Xiaomi Black Shark
HTC U11/U12/U12+
Moto Z2/3
Sony XZ2/3
Razer Phone 1/2
iPhone 7/8/X/XS/XR
Pixel 2/3 (basically a Google iPhone)

So basically, most mfg's are keeping the headphone jack. As people like it, use it, and get quite raged when its missing...
I know I like the new XZ3, but I'm unlikely to buy it due to no 3.5mm jack.... which is something I'm now using literally every night as I put my son to sleep.
 

Wombat

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Would be interesting to have the apple one for comparison. I think it's like under $10?


Apple sells something for less than $10? That must be in the USA. Apple extras hurt in Australia.
 

n2it

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On USB-C dongles: I am now on my second phone with a USB-C DAC/AMP dongle. I just got the Pixel 3 to replace an Essential PH1. While I like that we have some measurements now on a couple (and it sounds like more on the way), I also hear a lot of complaining over eliminating it - as if a 3.5 mm headphone jack on a typical phone ever sounded that good. (There may be some exceptions like the LG that was reviewed on here). So my opinion on the 2 USB-C DAC/AMP dongles that I have used - they seem to sound about the same as a 3.5 mm jack of previous phones I've had driving my IEMs. I just keep it attached to my IEMs so it is always there.

For me, the dongle is fine for watching shows and listening to Spotify or Apple Music (i.e. lossy music). And aren't most regular consumers fine with lossy music and fine with whatever dac/amp are currently in their phone?. In the car, using Android Auto, I am pretty sure that it uses bluetooth anyway - and car stereo manufacturers are doing away analog line in. For longer trips, I also have a separate USB DAC/AMP, which I can use with the line in of my car stereo if I want to bother or a pair of closed headphones, and a number (about 30gb worth) of my favorites in FLAC or DSD on my phone should I want a higher quality experience. That same DAC supports receiving bluetooth AptX - which is about CD quality should I need it.

On why the manufacturers are doing this: There are 2 big reasons - manufacturing costs and value to the customer. While I can't reference specific costs, removing parts and complexity (i.e. the 3.5mm) from PCB manufacturing saves money or they wouldn't be doing it. Sure, it is probably icing on the cake to also be able to market and sell a high margin set of bluetooth headphones. I see the dongles anywhere between $4 to $100s on Amazon right now - those will continue to come down in price.

Removing the jack (and reducing PCB size needed) also allows them to add more features (bigger screens, bigger batteries, fingerprint sensors under the screen, additional/dual/triple cameras, additional AI chips, etc.) in the same amount of space. I would much prefer 1-2 hours more of battery life and an AI processing chip instead of a headphone jack - for me, I find more value in that.

On Bluetooth: Bluetooth is everywhere now and getting better for those who want it. While some of us may care about sound quality, aren't most folks (again who are listening to lossy music and using the headphones that came with their phone) a lot less interested in the perfect sound. For most (and sometimes for me) - good enough is good enough, especially when it doesn't involve wires. My wife uses a $50 set of bluetooth headphones that are designed for exercising. She is fine with the sound and the battery lasts 12 hours. I am looking to get a noise cancelling Bluetooth over the ear headphones - not sure which - some have LDAC (which supports 96 kHz / 24 bits) - others AptX - HD (which supports 48 kHz / 24 bits) - and many of them also support running in a wired mode ... and none of them from a phone manufacturer. Seems like those are good enough options - considering what music and shows I am likely going to be listening to on my phone.

I've never been totally happy with the quality of music through the headphone jack of a phone - the dongle doesn't really change that. I will try to use the newer Bluetooth codecs for convenience and know that I can always fall back on a USB DAC (with my phone as a transport).
 

duo8

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About the apple adapter: IIRC it only works on devices from a certain generation or newer.
Don't remember which generation, so just to be safe you might want to get something from 2016 or newer.
 
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amirm

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About the apple adapter: IIRC it only works on devices from a certain generation or newer.
Don't remember which generation, so just to be safe you might want to get something from 2016 or newer.
Thanks. Seems like Apple will announce new ipads on October 30th. I will wait for that in the hope that the last generation's price goes lower.
 

TungstenC

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I've tried the lighting adapter(included with iPhone X) and it works on my iPad Air 1 (2013) fine, but either the built-in jack or the dongle will work.(couldn't remember which)
 
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amirm

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I've tried the lighting adapter(included with iPhone X) and it works on my iPad Air 1 (2013) fine, but either the built-in jack or the dongle will work.(couldn't remember which)
That's good to know as the Air 1 is much cheaper....
 

έχω δίκιο

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...phones that don't include them tend to sell very poorly (including the newer iPhones, which is why Apple is forced to raise the price of their garbage devices in order to maintain the same profit margins).

According to Counterpoint Research, In Q2 of 2018, Apple had 40% of the U.S. smartphone market. The next closest competitor was Samsung with only 25%, despite the fact that Samsung has budget phones that retail for less than $150 (unlocked and new). LG was at 16% and no other manufacturer was above single digit percentages.

A July article on ExtremeTech entitled Apple Gained Market Share in Q2 as iOS Dominates US Smartphone Sales, citing data from Kantar Worldpanel ComTech, said "New reports suggest that Apple has hammered Android’s market share over the past twelve months on the strength of iPhone X and iPhone 8 sales."

Your belief that manufacturers can control their profit margins by just raising prices betrays your lack of understanding of basic economics. If it worked like that, Blackberry would have just raised prices as demand for their phones plummeted.
 
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Thomas savage

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When it comes to the headphone jack, if you want one you have a choice of top line phones to chose from and if you don’t you have a choice of top line phones to chose from.

Hardly a thing to be getting upset about then, support the companies you feel best realise your needs ,, everyone has different priorities. No need to get tribal about it, well not here anyway.

More facts less blowhard, I’m not interested is good threads like this becoming a tribal battle ground for base level mud throwing personal or otherwise. Nor I’m a keen for folks to jump on their anti this or that hobbyhorse at every opportunity.
 
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Talk about simplistic and flawed arguments! Headphone jacks didn't simultaneously dissappear from all phones in the market. Consumers who didn't like phones without headphone jacks could have put off upgrading or could have switched to competing phones that still had jacks.

Like the other users, you seem to completely gloss over some very obvious facts that have very conclusively answered this claim. But looks like I yet again have to copy/paste my arguments, as I'm apparenty discussing with a wall:

1. There's more in a phone than just the headphone jack. Just because you buy a smartphone without a headphone jack, doesn't mean you agree with its disappearance. I, for example, bought the Pixel 2 back in 2017 over any other flagship, due to the importance of a good and reliable software experience, as well as the best camera on the market. Doesn't mean I don't vehemently oppose the removal of the jacks. Same is true of virtually every family member and friend I have, with iPhones, Pixels, HTCs and Huaweis; they all are disappointed at the loss of the jack.

2. To buy newer models of various phones, you were forced to go without a headphone jack. If you're an iOS user, for example, YOU HAVE TO BUY AN IPHONE WITHOUT A HEADPHONE JACK. Or do you expect users who need new phones, to buy 2-3 year old iPhones? Nexus owners to upgrade to the Pixel OG, rather than the newer Pixel 3, or 2? You talk about switching to competing brands, but competing brands don't necessarily provide these the same experiences and qualities. For an iOS user, that answer is pretty self-evident, and we are talking about switching an entire platform. For a Pixel user, it means competing OSes that have inferior software experience (like considerably more frame drops, jitter, jank stutter and inconsistencies, bad upgrade times).

If you want a more accurate demonstration of consumer choice, look at the years when all smartphones had headphone jacks, when Bluetooth was an option. Back then, the people had the choice to buy both wired and wireless headphones. What did they go for? Well, up until the headphone jacks disappeared, the overwhelming majority of headphones were wired. That's enough proof of where the consumer demands were.

m pretty sure you didn't get a briefing from any of those companies before, during, or after the decision making process. They didn't show you their internal market research and analysis or share with you how they made the decisions. All you're going on is the marketing spin put out to the public.

You're shooting yourself in the foot here. You were the one who originally made claims about Google and Apple's intentions being down to demand/supply and costs. If we accept your argument that we don't know what's going on internally within these companies, then your original statement regarding the economic motives of these companies is completely and utterly invalid.

What was the cost for warranty service for headphone jacks that failed within the warranty period? How much did they spend on warranty repairs even though the damage was caused by the consumer running the protruding body of the headphone plug into something? What would the additional cost be to to seal against water intrusion at a headphone jack?

What were the costs of the constant resupply of 3.5mm adapters to users from Google, as defective 3.5mm dongle was one of the most common widespread quality control problems? What is the cost benefit of removing a 3.5mm jack, but having to include a similar dongle, with its own additional/separate DAC/Amp, in every box? What is the cost benefit of including Pixel buds on top of that, with the Pixel 3, as a result of the outcry from the Pixel 2? Sealing a 3.5mm jack from water intrusion commands the same rubber materials as other areas of the device, does, and many companies, like Samsung, LG and Sony, have for years demonstrated that it can be done without big issues/compromises.

What you fail to understand is that the inclusion of those has been a transitional thing, just as external USB floppy drives were sometimes bundled with laptops when built-infloppy drives were first eliminated. Now we see that the dongles are not being included by Apple:

And what you fail to understand is that we're already 2 years in, the second of which Google has added earphones in the box as well. So whatever "cost benefit" Google would have had, can be thrown out the window by those facts. Additionally, a 3.5mm jack is one of the most inexpensive components to have in a phone. Even in mid-range and low-end devices, where it is still a standard. So even assuming there would be an extra cost on the phone over longer periods of time, the extra cost is so insignificant it's not worth taking seriously as a relevant factor.

t has everything to do with a free market; I bring it up because I have a very good understanding of capitalism and economics.

If you reliably had "a very good understanding of capitalism and economics", then you would have recognized that state intervention runs wholly contradictory to the idea of a free market. Non-intervention from authorities in the economy, is in fact at the very core of a free market economic theory and philosophy, as put forth by Enlightenment and Classical philosophers like Adam Smith. If you had read such basic books as Wealth of Nations, you would know that the economies of the West today, including the US, are as remote from a free market system as you can get. They are highly protectionist. While Keynesian economics has very much regressed in much parts of Europe and the US, since the late 1970's in terms of public welfare spending, it's thriving in the private sector. Government intervention there is very much alive, and in fact quintessential for their survival. "The principal architects of policy" are the "merchants and manufacturers", as Adam Smith put it.

Both Apple and Google rely on government subsidies to expand and to develop. When they receive hundreds of millions in tax cuts to, say, build a new data center, that's no different than a government welfare program paying for your trip to the doctor when you are sick. But it's not just in the cost of running a business these companies are subsidized, but also in the very innovations and technologies that has laid the basis of their profit. Lasers, data storage , transistors, the internet, GUIs, AI, etc. are all technologies developed through government-funded projects, firms (IBM, XEROX Parc, Bell Labs) or research institutions like MIT, through Pentagon. Most of the research at that time was funneled through DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency).

It's a free market because all of the competitors have access to the fruits of the publicly funded research.

The contradiction in this sentence is hilarious, and is a very clear demonstration of the lack of understanding of what a free market is or means, or even the fundamental understanding of economy. The "access to the fruits of publicly funded research", or rather the government going directly in and funding the various firms enormous sums of money for specialized research (in other words, eating up their costs), as well as providing subsidies for other costs (such as my data center example above), is a textbook illustration of protectionism. In this case, protectionism of the private sector.

It's pretty well-understood by economists, in particular those with influence on the political system, that proper free market theory is a recipe for disaster. That's a truism in economic history. But the difference with the system today is that the private sector has been socialized (whereby you have a nanny state that goes in and protects corporations from going bankrupt, and covers their costs), whereas the public sector has been privatized. So free market for normal people, as your arguments are a clear example of, but a kind of socialism for the rich (corporations).

Naturally, business is delighted with all of this: the public pays the costs, assumes the risks, and profit and power are privatised -- that’s how existing market theory works.

Yes, it is, just as it's a free market when they enjoy greater discounts on components than do manufacturers who buy in smaller quantities.

Start by reading "Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith and "Economics: The User's Guide" by Ha-Joon Chang, so that you can establish an understanding of the underlying aspects of economies and how they work. Come back to me when you've finished doing that.
 
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Thomas savage

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All further ill mannered , off topic bickering about headphone jacks and Apple will magically disappear . I suggest seeking out the Apple forum and carrying on these rants over there as they fall well below the standard we expect. Also in general if you want to behave like your on twitter, go be on twitter.

A friendly heads up going forward , changing from being arrogant and rude to just being passive aggressive won’t win you any prizes. We really do require a higher level of discourse, have fun and a laugh but please keep a base level of respect for each other and a eye on the fact being constructive within our exchanges is preferable.

Thanks and please remember this is a place for information, fun and shared learning.. if your post dose not meet one of those your probably in the wrong place.
 

Veri

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Why the actual hell is this arguing still going on despite the 3-4 warnings already. Even if you think you're right, behave yourselves, yeah? :rolleyes:

Thank you Thomas savage
 

JJB70

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The rot set in when carrier pigeons replaced smoke signals as the preferred means of communicating over distances.
 
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amirm

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