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Balanced vs unbalanced

solderdude

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I have measured silver vs copper headphone cables.
Both in frequency response as with distortion.
The most difficult part here was to NOT move the headphone, not even a millimeter, which took some time and an assistant to do this.
There was NO measurable difference other than a resistive one for low impedance headphones.

For HD800(S) with its high impedance and 4 wire cable the resistance is of no consequence.

With low impedance IEMs and headphones the resistance DOES matter (as it increases the source impedance) but has to be significant.

Also... with 3-wire cables (common return wire) the resistance of the return wire combined with a low impedance can give measurable differences.

Good reasons to replace headphone cables:
  1. when it is broken
  2. when it is too short or too long
  3. when you need another connector on the amp side and converters are not desirable
  4. when the cable is microphonic
  5. when you want a cable with microphone in it or one that doesn't have one
  6. when the cable is too stiff
  7. when the cable is constantly tangling
  8. when you want a different look/feel/ sheathing material
 

SIY

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which one?
Level matching and almost certainly basic blinding procedures.

Put this in perspective; either:

1. Basic physics is wrong about things that have been well-established for at least a century and totally overlooked by extraordinarily sensitive measurements in multiple technical fields (astronomy, medicine, particle physics, lasers....).

OR

2. Basic controls weren't implemented leading to an incorrect result.


Which would you say is more likely?
 

fpitas

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Could be the elusive X Factor.

/I'll let myself out
 

Blashyrkh

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Level matching and almost certainly basic blinding procedures.

Put this in perspective; either:

1. Basic physics is wrong about things that have been well-established for at least a century and totally overlooked by extraordinarily sensitive measurements in multiple technical fields (astronomy, medicine, particle physics, lasers....).

OR

2. Basic controls weren't implemented leading to an incorrect result.


Which would you say is more likely?
Obviously the second one, but just wanted to understand things better.

Which are the measurements to understand how good a headphone is at soundstaging and imaging?
Which is the psicological explanation that makes me hear differences with headphones cable and not interconnections? (same implementation with no level matching)
 

Blashyrkh

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I have measured silver vs copper headphone cables.
Both in frequency response as with distortion.
The most difficult part here was to NOT move the headphone, not even a millimeter, which took some time and an assistant to do this.
There was NO measurable difference other than a resistive one for low impedance headphones.

For HD800(S) with its high impedance and 4 wire cable the resistance is of no consequence.

With low impedance IEMs and headphones the resistance DOES matter (as it increases the source impedance) but has to be significant.

Also... with 3-wire cables (common return wire) the resistance of the return wire combined with a low impedance can give measurable differences.

Good reasons to replace headphone cables:
  1. when it is broken
  2. when it is too short or too long
  3. when you need another connector on the amp side and converters are not desirable
  4. when the cable is microphonic
  5. when you want a cable with microphone in it or one that doesn't have one
  6. when the cable is too stiff
  7. when the cable is constantly tangling
  8. when you want a different look/feel/ sheathing material
I was also reading from somewhere in the benchmark's site that they actually do not implement XLR out for balanced, but just because is a much better connector than TRS even if used SE.
Is that true?
 

TonyJZX

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on thing i would note is the sheer size of XLR vs. rca - makes device bigger

for most of us we are doing DAC -> integrated

or dac -> preamp -> power amp

but they are close to each other so why bother? i'm not the definitive source of experience but i've never had any interference from these close in rca devices

BUT if the interfaces are effectively 'free'... in that your xlr dac, xlr preamp and amp have them then may as well buy them

ie. that audiophonics 100w amp currently reviewed costs the same for rca vs xlr

as long as you're sure you're going to be using xlr forever then go xlr?
 

Veri

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I have measured silver vs copper headphone cables.
Both in frequency response as with distortion.
The most difficult part here was to NOT move the headphone, not even a millimeter, which took some time and an assistant to do this.
There was NO measurable difference other than a resistive one for low impedance headphones.

For HD800(S) with its high impedance and 4 wire cable the resistance is of no consequence.

With low impedance IEMs and headphones the resistance DOES matter (as it increases the source impedance) but has to be significant.

Also... with 3-wire cables (common return wire) the resistance of the return wire combined with a low impedance can give measurable differences.

Good reasons to replace headphone cables:
  1. when it is broken
  2. when it is too short or too long
  3. when you need another connector on the amp side and converters are not desirable
  4. when the cable is microphonic
  5. when you want a cable with microphone in it or one that doesn't have one
  6. when the cable is too stiff
  7. when the cable is constantly tangling
  8. when you want a different look/feel/ sheathing material
<3
 

Ricardus

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I know you are already thinking I'm hearing things just on expectation, but actually my expectations were to send the cables back.
Unfortunately that's not how expectation bias works. I told a story in another thread about this that I don't feel like re-typing.
 

solderdude

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I was also reading from somewhere in the benchmark's site that they actually do not implement XLR out for balanced, but just because is a much better connector than TRS even if used SE.
Is that true?

yes, the connector is for convenience, they are not the only ones doing this.
When there is enough power available SE then balanced is not needed.
Balanced operation is handy when not much power supply voltage is available. In that case you can still provide a decently high output voltage/power without having to resort to internal DC/DC converters.
The technical advantage is the cable has to be 4 wire. This part (4-wire) is important when it concerns crosstalk (not the same as crossfeed).
 

solderdude

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Which are the measurements to understand how good a headphone is at soundstaging and imaging?
When you find them and they are based on actual science let me know.
There is an attempt by Rtings but this is not conclusive at all.
Cuckoo studio also does something like this but have no idea what it is based on.
Besides.... the perception of soundstage is highly individual dependent.

Which is the psicological explanation that makes me hear differences with headphones cable and not interconnections? (same implementation with no level matching)
Could be different positioning on the head, could be expectation bias (in case of the HD800 for sure) could be that you do your utmost best to detect differences which you are sure to find even if there aren't any.

Obviously the signal itself is NOT changed so how would the sound differ ?
 

Ricardus

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Do you remember which thread?
This is the post I made:

This (biases) came up in a pro audio discrete op-amp shootout I was discussing on a different forum some years ago. One of the DOA designers talked about how he wanted to use surface mount components to save money, but on every (not blind) listening test the through-hole devices always won.


Someone mentioned that his bias was making him choose the through hole over the SM, and he refused to believe it because after all he "wanted" the SM to win to save him money.


But that isn't how it works. He's around 60 years old, and since he was probably 10 he's used through hole, and been told that discrete through hole "sounds" the best and it's been reinforced by the bubbles and communities he's surrounded himself with.


Wanting to save $1 per device on components isn't going to be able to undo 50 years of conditioning that "through hole sounds better."
This is why the tests need to be double blind.
 

Blashyrkh

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When you find them and they are based on actual science let me know.
There is an attempt by Rtings but this is not conclusive at all.
Cuckoo studio also does something like this but have no idea what it is based on.
Besides.... the perception of soundstage is highly individual dependent.
I saw those on Rtings, and are pretty interesting, especially the PRTF....at least are more than just frequency response and THD, or not?

Could be different positioning on the head, could be expectation bias (in case of the HD800 for sure) could be that you do your utmost best to detect differences which you are sure to find even if there aren't any.
But wait a minute, I didn't do a scientifically perfect BT, but it's anyway a BT. Sure the positioning of the headphones or level mismatch may impact, but not knowing which cable I used it's impossible to guess 10/10 just because I expect things. The play session is also pretty long, I don't stay on focus for 10 or more minutes straight, also because I couldn't care less about differences that I need to do my best to detect

The signal should be definately the same, that's why I was wondering if there may be other way or measurements that are done, moreover I don't sense any kind of difference in the frequency response, it's not bright or something like this. It's just that the sound and insruments are more on focus, with blacker background
 
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solderdude

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at least are more than just frequency response and THD, or not?
Yes but is it valid ?
You see the 10kHz dip is only there on certain industry standard fixtures and peoples hearing may well have that at different frequencies.
Looking at a dip there for this does not make sense. If it would simply be a dip at a certain frequency then one would simply notch any headphone at that frequency and magically a depth or width or image stability would occur. This does not happen (I tried) at all so it isn't 'the dip'.
The pinna activation is likely to have something to do with it. But it is also pinna shape, angle and driver size/distance dependent.
Just have a look at different ears and how they sit on ones head. That can differ a LOT from the ones on test fixtures.
So... it is highly unlikely one can 'measure' the effect on some fixture and make that the same for individuals.

Nah... I'd like to see Harman type research in this.

I saw some reviewers claim a 'dip' in the 1kHz-5kHz range can create the illusion of being 'further away' which might bring an illusion of 'depth' for some people.
Making that change in a HD650 (EQ it to HD800S), however, does not magically turn it into a 'wide soundstage headphone) so is unlikely to be a tell tale sign.

But as said, not everyone hears 'depth' in headphones, not even with some trickery. How do you measure that and quantify it ?
 

solderdude

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Amir also compared cables the same way I did and found the same:

Of course this has nothing to do with differential (balanced) vs not balanced cables.
 
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Blashyrkh

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Yes but is it valid ?
You see the 10kHz dip is only there on certain industry standard fixtures and peoples hearing may well have that at different frequencies.
Looking at a dip there for this does not make sense. If it would simply be a dip at a certain frequency then one would simply notch any headphone at that frequency and magically a depth or width or image stability would occur. This does not happen (I tried) at all so it isn't 'the dip'.
The pinna activation is likely to have something to do with it. But it is also pinna shape, angle and driver size/distance dependent.
Just have a look at different ears and how they sit on ones head. That can differ a LOT from the ones on test fixtures.
So... it is highly unlikely one can 'measure' the effect on some fixture and make that the same for individuals.

Nah... I'd like to see Harman type research in this.

I saw some reviewers claim a 'dip' in the 1kHz-5kHz range can create the illusion of being 'further away' which might bring an illusion of 'depth' for some people.
Making that change in a HD650 (EQ it to HD800S), however, does not magically turn it into a 'wide soundstage headphone) so is unlikely to be a tell tale sign.

But as said, not everyone hears 'depth' in headphones, not even with some trickery. How do you measure that and quantify it ?
obviously not, but I also believe that reducing a test to distortion and frequency response is like underestimate a much more complex topic.

The dip frequency, like you said, may be different for everyone, each head is different, each ear is different, and each canal is different, but when you place audio source in front, or above, each person is perfectly able to detect the direction, even in anechoic environment where there are no reflections.

This is due on how the pinna works, and if what you say is true, each person may have different perception of sound coming from different angles, not only with phones, but also in real life sounds.

So, there should be a common denominator that makes people pinpoint sound even with different ears, maybe the reflections may vary in intensity, but frequency range for perception is mainly the same for everyone despite different anatomy.

I also would not take into account a poll on how people hear the headstage because they are not controlled, and we don't know how they wear the headphones, thing that is mainly important for something like soundstage (as you also stated).
I quote from that thread:
HD 800 (S): Slightly in the back of my head with ultra-wide panning
How do I know he wears the phones to much behind the ear?
That's why we need controlled tests for something like this.

Changing the frequency response of the headphone not working is a good point, but due to the nature of the headphones, I think that also reflections should be taken into account, and that's why probably PRTF alone may not be enough.
It would also not be enough because each person have different shape, but at the end ears works exactly the same for everyone and that curve is just a model to try to evaluate things, and not to say that curve is the same for each person.
It would be very interesting to test PRTF on totally different shapes (constructed on real people anatomy) and see the differences, then compare also with those real people perception of the sound.

Anyway, that said, I underline again that I don't belive that PRTF is bulletproof, but I also don't believe that frq resp and thd may be enough, moreover, considering that there is a lot of science behind headphone spatialization that really works creating realistic sound from behind, there is not a way to understand and measure this topic.


Anyway again, what I hear when swapping to balanced is nothing related to what has been said above, soundstage is not that different, and, above all, frequency response is not altered.
It's more about imaging and focus, better boundaries of the instruments and control of the frequencies (mainly bass), it's something more related to things like group delay or crosstalk
 

solderdude

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This is due on how the pinna works, and if what you say is true, each person may have different perception of sound coming from different angles, not only with phones, but also in real life sounds.

That's not the case at all. 1: with headphones sound is not coming from the front at all but from a small pressure chamber from the sides.
It would be closer to speakers on the far left and right and if we position speakers there the sound is very similar to what a headphone does including the sound not be thrown 'forward'.

So, there should be a common denominator that makes people pinpoint sound even with different ears, maybe the reflections may vary in intensity, but frequency range for perception is mainly the same for everyone despite different anatomy.

Well there is but not a common one. You see, everyone's pinna is different and our brains calibrate constantly and we 'learn' how to locate certain sounds.
So that's individual and not something common.

HD 800 (S): Slightly in the back of my head with ultra-wide panning
How do I know he wears the phones to much behind the ear?
That's why we need controlled tests for something like this.

Do you feel the Rtings tests were controlled ?
Would it not be a personal thing, sounds coming from the sides instead of from the front like speakers would ?

I agree that it would be interesting to see actual research being done and suppose plenty has been done given the Smyth and other realizers.
It needs 'trickery' and not a regular stereo signal to pull that off, maybe even head tracking to mimic a point source of the sound.

Yes, it is known how localization works and which frequencies and aspects (timing/phase/L+R) are important.

But... this really does not change with a cable nor with drivers being driven by the same signal but driven by 2 amps per side instead of 1.

I also don't believe that frq resp and thd may be enough,

Oh, I am sure FR and THD are not enough such as time related aspects and crosstalk is too.

It's more about imaging and focus, better boundaries of the instruments and control of the frequencies (mainly bass), it's something more related to things like group delay or crosstalk

With headphones using 4 wire cables there is no difference in the L-R signals regardless if they are differential or referenced to ground so the perceived differences can not come from there.
They could come from the 6dB level difference (when truly differential) which one would have to compensate for when comparing 2 cables.

Why would GD be any different and crosstalk any different when a 4-wire cable is used (IEM's and Sennheiser headphones are all 4 wire)
 

Blashyrkh

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That's not the case at all. 1: with headphones sound is not coming from the front at all but from a small pressure chamber from the sides.
It would be closer to speakers on the far left and right and if we position speakers there the sound is very similar to what a headphone does including the sound not be thrown 'forward'.
That's why drivers are angled, to have a soundstage coming more from the front. Obviously it will never be speaker-like, but those measurements are intended to understand how soundstage behave, considering they always are headphones (and why in-ear are not included).

Moreover it's the same for frequancy responce, each hear is different, and that's why for example many people praise the DT880 and I can barely use it for 5 minutes.
Same goes with HD800, that is perfect for me, and not for others

Well there is but not a common one. You see, everyone's pinna is different and our brains calibrate constantly and we 'learn' how to locate certain sounds.
So that's individual and not something common.
It's just for reference, probably different heads have different dips, but probably it doesn't matter since they are compared to speaker pinna activation, and it's not an absolute measurements.
That's why it would be interesting to see measurements on other heads and see the differences, to understand if the results are the same with only different peaks and dips.

Do you feel the Rtings tests were controlled ?
Would it not be a personal thing, sounds coming from the sides instead of from the front like speakers would ?
No, but they are pretty authoritative and I believe that at least they do things as they should, even if thoe measurements may not be conclusive


But... this really does not change with a cable nor with drivers being driven by the same signal but driven by 2 amps per side instead of 1.


With headphones using 4 wire cables there is no difference in the L-R signals regardless if they are differential or referenced to ground so the perceived differences can not come from there.
They could come from the 6dB level difference (when truly differential) which one would have to compensate for when comparing 2 cables.

Why would GD be any different and crosstalk any different when a 4-wire cable is used (IEM's and Sennheiser headphones are all 4 wire)
Anyway here I agree, and that is what I expected too.
I just wanted to understand why I can hear different imaging capabilities (yet not soundstage) quite easly (anyway small, it's not switching from HD650 to HD800.
But I assume I have allucinations, case closed :D
 

solderdude

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That's why drivers are angled, to have a soundstage coming more from the front. Obviously it will never be speaker-like, but those measurements are intended to understand how soundstage behave, considering they always are headphones (and why in-ear are not included).

The angle is almost negligible. It would be comparing to speakers from the sides of the head to 2 speakers a few degrees more forward. Still on the side of the head and far removed from sounds coming from the front. When you look at measurements of HATS with the response plotted at different angles you will see there is very little difference there.
That, however, is not the same as a driver being close to the ear. Drivers have a different response from the middle and towards the edge (when measured up close) and positioning is more important than an angle being slightly different.
So this is a complex thing not easily measured nor captured in numbers or visualizations.

It's just for reference, probably different heads have different dips, but probably it doesn't matter since they are compared to speaker pinna activation, and it's not an absolute measurements.
That's why it would be interesting to see measurements on other heads and see the differences, to understand if the results are the same with only different peaks and dips.
Plenty of research is done on this. Variations can be up to 20dB (narrow band) above several kHz.
The whole 'soundstage, depth and imaging' is very individual dependent and the combination of headphone/fit/interaction.
There is no way you can capture this in a number, plot or visualization that will be correct for the majority of people (think Harman target for tonality)

I just wanted to understand why I can hear different imaging capabilities (yet not soundstage) quite easly (anyway small, it's not switching from HD650 to HD800.
But I assume I have allucinations, case closed :D

All drivers are balanced in operation. It is only about the voltage across the driver. Differential drive or not does not matter at all as the voltage across the driver is the same.
So IF there are actual differences they would have to come from an increased output resistance (it is always double in differential mode) or it has to do with 3-wire versus 4 wire.
There could be situations where the common (ground = sleeve) connection in the amp itself has an unusual high (think several ohms) between the sleeve contact and the reference (common/signal ground) combined with low impedance headphones.
With most amps the sleeve connects directly to a ground plane though.
There is no magic or special something between differential and SE drive that is so different that it would not affect tone or stereo effects but only imaging.
Of course, a 6dB level difference (double the voltage) when switching between a SE and balanced output can bring effects that would be really hard to ignore unless one also lowers the level exactly 6dB when switching between the 2 outputs. When the 'balanced connector' is just for convenience a direct comparison would make more sense and would be easier to do.
Or you should be able to separate that single aspect and be able to tie that to the actual signal that is very different.
 
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