BACCH and other XTC

[STC]

Anyone here who is using BACCH or other crosstalk cancellation such as Ruark or Weiss and many others to list your speakers model, distance to listener and if possible the room RT.

I am trying to understand why some users cannot get the XTC work in their system.

I will start with mine.

Speakers - Sound Lab electrostatics
Distance - 2.5 meters
RT - 0.2s.
XTC - My own modified RACE version.

Thank you.

 

[Keith_W]

Speakers: Acapella High Violon (horns from 500Hz up).
Distance: 3 meters
RT: 0.35s
XTC: uBACCH for Windows

 

[STC]

Speakers: Acapella High Violon (horns from 500Hz up).
Distance: 3 meters
RT: 0.35s
XTC: uBACCH for Windows

Thanks Keith. Are the horns above your head level and could you describe the Edgar the barber track?

BTW, I did try uBACCH but did not work for me.

 

[Keith_W]

Hi ST. The tweeter horn is at ear level, and the midrange horn is above. There is no Edgar the Barber on Tidal or Youtube, so I can't describe it for you ... sorry!

 

[STC]

BACCH uses Edgar the barber track for demo. For now we only have only that track as a reference. Perhaps, @Theoretica Appl. Physics should make the track freely available on their website. Hope Chesky would mind it.

Apple Music got them.

 

[STC]

Comparing to Ruark playback captured with in ear mics and my own playback, gives a different perceptive than what we hear to the system for the Edgar’s track. Unfortunately, without enough feedback I guess some users not going benefit with XTC.

 

[Gwreck]

The more narrow the directivity the better the XTC. I have Sanders model -10 esl and get over 20db of XTC with BACCH. I have a 1000+ sqft room and 4 inch deep acoustic panels behind the speaker to absorb the rear reflection. Wide directivity speaker in a well treated room can do well also.

 

[STC]

Thanks for your input. @Gwreck

That’s the theory but I get more precise cancellations when I experimented with small Logitech and Edifier desktop speakers. The same values hardly worked with bigger speakers. The most precise cancellation I get is when listeners adjust by using own reference recordings.

BTW, how did you establish you got 20dB attenuation?

 

[Gwreck]

Thanks for your input. @Gwreck

That’s the theory but I get more precise cancellations when I experimented with small Logitech and Edifier desktop speakers. The same values hardly worked with bigger speakers. The most precise cancellation I get is when listeners adjust by using own reference recordings.

BTW, how did you establish you got 20dB attenuation?

The XTC is measured within BACCH itself.

 

[Gwreck]

Thanks for your input. @Gwreck

That’s the theory but I get more precise cancellations when I experimented with small Logitech and Edifier desktop speakers. The same values hardly worked with bigger speakers. The most precise cancellation I get is when listeners adjust by using own reference recordings.

BTW, how did you establish you got 20dB attenuation?

One way to “brute force” XTC is the separate your speakers with a mattress method. It works as well as it is inconvenient. It should give you an idea of what to expect with other methods. I own a mini-ambio which was the best version of XTC I heard before BACCH. It is a mini DSP with the RACE pluggin. Currently mini DSP has the ambiophonic app for the 2x4 and 2x4 hd.

 

[STC]

The XTC is measured within BACCH itself.

I am not sure how to read the graph. The top graph say simulated. Measured value is blank. The bottom graph also not making sense to me as both left and right measurements are identical. Moller’s and other measurements showed very different values for left and right ears.

One way to “brute force” XTC is the separate your speakers with a mattress method.

That’s what convinced me to do it in 2004. I have 2 Miniambio and almost all other XTC. I now use my own. I also tried uBACCH but it didn’t work with my system.

I think the Ambiophonics DSP in Miniambio doesn’t support the HD version. The original program was written with the sampling rate of 44.1kHz. Despite, my best effort to convince the developers to come up with higher sampling rate nothing materialized. Since BACCH has established itself I guess now the focus will be on BACCH and wouldn’t be surprised to see their plug-in in Minidsp.

 

[STC]

Here is the playback of Ruark captured with binaural mics.

Ruark R7 3D Audio comparison

 

[Gwreck]

I am not sure how to read the graph. The top graph say simulated. Measured value is blank. The bottom graph also not making sense to me as both left and right measurements are identical. Moller’s and other measurements showed very different values for left and right ears.



That’s what convinced me to do it in 2004. I have 2 Miniambio and almost all other XTC. I now use my own. I also tried uBACCH but it didn’t work with my system.

I think the Ambiophonics DSP in Miniambio doesn’t support the HD version. The original program was written with the sampling rate of 44.1kHz. Despite, my best effort to convince the developers to come up with higher sampling rate nothing materialized. Since BACCH has established itself I guess now the focus will will be BACCH and would be surprised to see their plug-in in Minidsp.

I see what you mean about the “simulated” xtc measurement. That number is what is the reference for what the XTC is. I will ask Theoretica about the difference between a measurement and simulated XTC. I haven’t used the miniambio in many years but the effect was interesting enough to make me interested in better.
FWIW I have a pair of KEF egg desktop speakers and BACCH barely does anything which sounds like your experience.

 

[STC]

I see what you mean about the “simulated” xtc measurement. That number is what is the reference for what the XTC is. I will ask Theoretica about the difference between a measurement and simulated XTC. I haven’t used the miniambio in many years but the effect was interesting enough to make me interested in better.
FWIW I have a pair of KEF egg desktop speakers and BACCH barely does anything which sounds like your experience.

All the other XTC worked. In fact, most of the setting I learned using NUC or laptop with cheap Edifier and Logitech speakers. I suspect the KEF were not phase aligned. I am still at lost why uBACCH didn’t work for me. I use line array speakers but the position was Ambiodipole but that was the same position Princeton used too while developing the XTC.

 

[STC]

And here is the left speaker’s sine sweep 100 Hz to 10kHz measured with DPA in ear mics with XTC. I have forgotten how and which program I used before to make both response curve in one graph. Anyone can help?

Left ear

Right ear

 

[maty]

Stereo Crosstalk Cancellation (XTC): A review by STC. And trying out uBACCH, ambeo.one, and AmbiophonicDSP VST plus Foobar foo_dsp_ambio plugins.

Stereo Crosstalk Cancellation (XTC): A review by STC. And trying out uBACCH, ambeo.one, and AmbiophonicDSP VST plus Foobar foo_dsp_ambio plugins.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

With mono recording the effect is almost none

Leoncavallo - I Pagliacci - Teatro alla Scalla - Callas, Di Stefano, Gobbi (1954) Vinyl x2, mono, Columbia, UK

What are we listening to right now..

www.audiosciencereview.com

But JRMC DSP Effects works with mono

 

[tifune]

I also use uBACCH. Once properly configured, the difference is not subtle. If I had the time, I would gladly switch to BACCH but I'm a lifelong Windows user and I have no idea what effort is involved to replicate my setup on a Mac. (jRiver running convolution and Room Shaper)

 

[Gwreck]

I also use uBACCH. Once properly configured, the difference is not subtle. If I had the time, I would gladly switch to BACCH but I'm a lifelong Windows user and I have no idea what effort is involved to replicate my setup on a Mac. (jRiver running convolution and Room Shaper)

A new Mac mini (M1 or m2 processor) with 16gb of ram is all that is needed and can be bought for a relatively small price ( if you compare it to other audio gear).

 

[tifune]

A new Mac mini (M1 or m2 processor) with 16gb of ram is all that is needed and can be bought for a relatively small price ( if you compare it to other audio gear).

Thanks; I'm very fortunate such that the financial cost isn't the barrier. It's moreso, how do I do xyz in OS X vs. windows. On a technical level, I have no doubt I can do it; on a scheduling level (dad life) I have many doubts. But, after using uBACCH for a few months, BACCH4Mac is absolutely the next upgrade I'm targeting.

 

[Gwreck]

Thanks; I'm very fortunate such that the financial cost isn't the barrier. It's moreso, how do I do xyz in OS X vs. windows. On a technical level, I have no doubt I can do it; on a scheduling level (dad life) I have many doubts. But, after using uBACCH for a few months, BACCH4Mac is absolutely the next upgrade I'm targeting.

If you are worried about using a Mac I’d keep the windows and just dedicate the Mac for BACCH. I use a MacBook Air and I control BACCH from my couch leading to many cords. A dedicated unit would be much more convenient and less messy.
When you get BACCH they will schedule your support call around your schedule and will ensure it works perfectly in your system. So very flexible time wise. I run a 15 inch MacBook Air and BACCH runs very well on that with minimal cpu usage. That’s probably 2x more than the Mac mini though. I originally had a Mac mini that was dedicated for BACCH in my system. It integrated well but the intel processor was not nearly as good as the m1 or m2 that the new Mac mini has.