I don't see any evidence in that link, one way or the other. However, if you sit through Geoff's press video linked above (or wade through his website), you can see the dispersion spectrum of the Beolab5.
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B&O's Beolab 90 isit the speaker that could?
- Thread starter Purité Audio
- Start date
AJ Soundfield
Major Contributor
a) have flat frequency response on-axis and in a horizontal arc swinging 180° in front of the speakers, while (b) emitting no high frequency information to the ceiling or floor (say, a 30° vertical dispersion), and (c) emitting no high frequencies behind the loudspeaker.
He clearly wasn't aiming for omni, but rather very wide lateral dispersion. I had simply forgotten.
Yep, saw those...and then the 90s. Most impressive. I have more work to do.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #43
B&O are 'usually' damned with faint praise style over substance etc etc, but in the 90's white paper they state that all speakers before we're designed primarily around aesthetic considerations and that the 90 is the first loudspeaker which was based on acoustics.
Is this just B&O rewriting their own history for marketing, the Beolab 5 licensed the wave guide design from Grimaldi I believe , it looks to me pretty serious, it had inbuilt room calibration and this was back in 02.
Keith.
Is this just B&O rewriting their own history for marketing, the Beolab 5 licensed the wave guide design from Grimaldi I believe , it looks to me pretty serious, it had inbuilt room calibration and this was back in 02.
Keith.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #44
Re the polar plots they only appear to be measuring down to 65Hz ?
But they do look impressive, what is the background of their acoustic designer Geoff Martin.
Keith.
But they do look impressive, what is the background of their acoustic designer Geoff Martin.
Keith.
I think it is a matter of emphasis. Other projects that lead to products have been initiated by design and marketing with the engineers being charged with realization. This project was begun with a charge to engineering to make a statement product and design/marketing came in later. I think it shows both in the engineering and in the presentation.
AJ Soundfield
Major Contributor
There is no need for directivity control below (yes that's possible) as I have shown multiple times with the papers I linked about lateralization and localization, etc.
Just have lots of power/headroom, no big peaks. Not hard to do, as modes become sparse at lowest frequencies. Wavelengths have become very large, compared to the room and your 2 ears. Monopoles (omni radiation) and even monophonic is fine below 50hz or so.
Knew about all the beam steering capabilities, but was unaware they may do a bit of crosstalk cancellation via the DSP.
Good stuff.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #47
I will ask about the crosstalk cancellation, it is alluded to but not really explained as far as I can see in their white paper.
Keith.
Keith.
I wonder if they use DSP to correct for SBIR.
AJ Soundfield
Major Contributor
I haven't seen any in room measurements yet, but the variable radiation shaping/steering capability could largely mitigate those type of boundary effects.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #50
Accompanied by eldest son, (for HF evaluation) we heard the Beolab 90's this morning at B&O's flagship London store, in Hanover Square.
the listening room wasn't huge , average UK domestic and the speakers were pushed back tightly into the corners, listening seats were two metres from rear wall.
Omni software isn't out yet, but we were able to listen to 'wide ' and 'narrow' dispersion, speakers and chair formed more or less equilateral triangle, three metres apart approx.
I suppose they were the most capable pair of loudspeakers I have heard, bass was outstanding especially in narrow mode, depth and placement were pin sharp in 'narrow' and just slightly fuzzier in wide, just as stated in the white paper.
I don't think there was any bass overhang at all, no smudging , it was like the bass was the midrange ,coherent and seamless.
I can't see how anyone could not like them.
Keith.
the listening room wasn't huge , average UK domestic and the speakers were pushed back tightly into the corners, listening seats were two metres from rear wall.
Omni software isn't out yet, but we were able to listen to 'wide ' and 'narrow' dispersion, speakers and chair formed more or less equilateral triangle, three metres apart approx.
I suppose they were the most capable pair of loudspeakers I have heard, bass was outstanding especially in narrow mode, depth and placement were pin sharp in 'narrow' and just slightly fuzzier in wide, just as stated in the white paper.
I don't think there was any bass overhang at all, no smudging , it was like the bass was the midrange ,coherent and seamless.
I can't see how anyone could not like them.
Keith.
I heard them in that room, too, but only briefly. I do not think you are missing much with regard to the "omni" option.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #52
Kal Hi, yes I can't think I would ever use them in that configuration , I really enjoyed the narrow beam setting,although at the 3metre distance, in that room the sweet spot was quite narrow, superb sound though.
They are so clean sounding , is that perhaps why some audiophiles don't like them?
Keith
They are so clean sounding , is that perhaps why some audiophiles don't like them?
Keith
Frankly, I think most audiophiles have never heard them and/or never heard of them.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #54
Yes.. the 90's appear to be rather at odds with the rest of the B&O range, there were lots of odd shaped 'things'on the walls, an archery target loudspeaker?
The 90's see to me to be from a more technology focused direction.
Did I read that the management of B& O had changed recently?
I read in their annual 2015 report that 73 shops had closed but 50 had opened,Iwonder what percentage of the closed shops were in Europe and how many of the openings in the Far East?
Keith
The 90's see to me to be from a more technology focused direction.
Did I read that the management of B& O had changed recently?
I read in their annual 2015 report that 73 shops had closed but 50 had opened,Iwonder what percentage of the closed shops were in Europe and how many of the openings in the Far East?
Keith
(Warning ! Long Winded Post!! )
Hi
Some years ago, I started a thread about Audiophiles and their prejudices on WBF. It did elicit some replies but not as many as I would have thought. It seems to me and that I have come to believe more and more that there is a certain pride associated with being an audiophile. A sentiment that goes past the simple pleasure of listening to equipment and finding differences in their sound. It seems to me that the very fact of being an audiophile has the undertone of setting us apart. Bestow many of us of a certain superiority in the area of perception: IOW audiophiles belong to a group of people with superior hearing abilities. Not superior people mind you, simply superior in this area. Any challenge to this is seen as an attack and is fiercely opposed. Let alone sobering statistics (Harman stats on Trained Listeners for example) that would show in a controlled fashion that our group (predominantly middle-aged gentlemen) don't hear any better than the vast majority of people and even less the average teen-agers, you know those people with incredibly fresh ears and hearing that can hear up to 20 KHz. OTOH we (The middle aged genetlemen) will be in a room with a tweeter spewing 15 Khz at 100 dB and not be bothered a bit because we are not hearing it at all not even as a background noise.!!!
And this is IMHO the walls the B&O 90 has to climb. We audiophiles are a very though nut to crack. We have come to establish many walls around us. And the industry has profited from this perception. For starters there are those who unconsciously are vested in the industry: Some honestly believe in the gears that make up the audiophile landscape. Go to an audiophile show and you will find many honest people listening to gear in a show who seriously think they can hear the contribution of one particular component, in an hotel room, with foreign equipment, in an incorrect set-up and yet recognize the contribution of that particular component , often the said person: a middle-aged gentlemen has brought an LP pressing sometimes a CD (this is not as high on the Audiophile Creds scale henceforth AC) or even less on the AC, a lowly Thumb Drive, they value as a standard, they know how it sounds IOW. That person is being honest and does sincerely and without much else believe he/she (very rarely a "she" but let's be PC) can hear those differences. Said person has the financial means to acquire those gears and let us not fool ourselves many are able to not all mind you.
And there is the guru worship. This is a very subtle issue. The Guru must push in the right direction. Please Guru do no Jolt. Don't startle us, please. Please don't .. Tell us what we want to hear, tell us that we can hear everything. Depending on how High the Guru AC (Audiophile Creds) is he can get away with a relatively strong jolt, for example Michael "the Ear" Fremer who said that ripped LP to CD differences would not be perceived if knoweldge was removed.. Of course this is forgiven and forgotten as long as MF doesn't repeat this faux-pas. Often for a product to succeed it is needed that a Guru endorse it. Absence of Guru approval for some products that ticks many audiophile marks: Big, heavy, pricey and with the appropriate aesthetics, often results in those products languishing in the audiophile dustbin, e.g uber expensive speakers such as the CAT MBX and GTT speakers have suffered this fate. So you need the Guru and these days with the Internet the Guru is not necessarily a writer or reviewer...
The company must also subscribe to High End Audio Orthodoxy. Again do not startle us or Jolt us! That is what John Dunleavy did with his speakers and we never forgave him. And B&O has done that and is even more daring to come up with a module to replace all amps: the Ice (WTF???!!) which is used in some Audiophiles approved products but .. would never find their ways in a SOTA product .
The Audiophile doesn't want to be proven that he /she has actually subpar audio perceptive abilities, that his/her hearing is poor, that those differences are induced by a vast array of external of factors most of those not audio. It burst a bubble it hurts even. It is avoided at all cost and with fierceness. Even the remote possibility of that is threatening. You want to have a fight please ask an audiophile to be tested under some blind condition not ABX not DBT simply remove the knoweldge .. Just .. ASK and see the resistance.. Just ask! Try! We see this all the time in Audio Forum and we all are subject to it. Some admit most don't..
These are some of the many walls the B&O 90 has to climb or break. Few of us even those who can afford them will acquire them. Sound quality be damned. I have no doubt the B&O 90 best many of the better Audiophile systems out there at a fraction of their prices. Call that an expectation bias. I will try to audition it and report...
Hi
Some years ago, I started a thread about Audiophiles and their prejudices on WBF. It did elicit some replies but not as many as I would have thought. It seems to me and that I have come to believe more and more that there is a certain pride associated with being an audiophile. A sentiment that goes past the simple pleasure of listening to equipment and finding differences in their sound. It seems to me that the very fact of being an audiophile has the undertone of setting us apart. Bestow many of us of a certain superiority in the area of perception: IOW audiophiles belong to a group of people with superior hearing abilities. Not superior people mind you, simply superior in this area. Any challenge to this is seen as an attack and is fiercely opposed. Let alone sobering statistics (Harman stats on Trained Listeners for example) that would show in a controlled fashion that our group (predominantly middle-aged gentlemen) don't hear any better than the vast majority of people and even less the average teen-agers, you know those people with incredibly fresh ears and hearing that can hear up to 20 KHz. OTOH we (The middle aged genetlemen) will be in a room with a tweeter spewing 15 Khz at 100 dB and not be bothered a bit because we are not hearing it at all not even as a background noise.!!!
And this is IMHO the walls the B&O 90 has to climb. We audiophiles are a very though nut to crack. We have come to establish many walls around us. And the industry has profited from this perception. For starters there are those who unconsciously are vested in the industry: Some honestly believe in the gears that make up the audiophile landscape. Go to an audiophile show and you will find many honest people listening to gear in a show who seriously think they can hear the contribution of one particular component, in an hotel room, with foreign equipment, in an incorrect set-up and yet recognize the contribution of that particular component , often the said person: a middle-aged gentlemen has brought an LP pressing sometimes a CD (this is not as high on the Audiophile Creds scale henceforth AC) or even less on the AC, a lowly Thumb Drive, they value as a standard, they know how it sounds IOW. That person is being honest and does sincerely and without much else believe he/she (very rarely a "she" but let's be PC
) can hear those differences. Said person has the financial means to acquire those gears and let us not fool ourselves many are able to not all mind you.And there is the guru worship. This is a very subtle issue. The Guru must push in the right direction. Please Guru do no Jolt. Don't startle us, please. Please don't .. Tell us what we want to hear, tell us that we can hear everything. Depending on how High the Guru AC (Audiophile Creds) is he can get away with a relatively strong jolt, for example Michael "the Ear" Fremer who said that ripped LP to CD differences would not be perceived if knoweldge was removed.. Of course this is forgiven and forgotten as long as MF doesn't repeat this faux-pas. Often for a product to succeed it is needed that a Guru endorse it. Absence of Guru approval for some products that ticks many audiophile marks: Big, heavy, pricey and with the appropriate aesthetics, often results in those products languishing in the audiophile dustbin, e.g uber expensive speakers such as the CAT MBX and GTT speakers have suffered this fate. So you need the Guru and these days with the Internet the Guru is not necessarily a writer or reviewer...
The company must also subscribe to High End Audio Orthodoxy. Again do not startle us or Jolt us! That is what John Dunleavy did with his speakers and we never forgave him. And B&O has done that and is even more daring to come up with a module to replace all amps: the Ice (WTF???!!) which is used in some Audiophiles approved products but .. would never find their ways in a SOTA product
.The Audiophile doesn't want to be proven that he /she has actually subpar audio perceptive abilities, that his/her hearing is poor, that those differences are induced by a vast array of external of factors most of those not audio. It burst a bubble it hurts even. It is avoided at all cost and with fierceness. Even the remote possibility of that is threatening. You want to have a fight please ask an audiophile to be tested under some blind condition not ABX not DBT simply remove the knoweldge .. Just .. ASK and see the resistance.. Just ask! Try! We see this all the time in Audio Forum and we all are subject to it. Some admit most don't..
These are some of the many walls the B&O 90 has to climb or break. Few of us even those who can afford them will acquire them. Sound quality be damned. I have no doubt the B&O 90 best many of the better Audiophile systems out there at a fraction of their prices. Call that an expectation bias
. I will try to audition it and report...
Last edited:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #56
Frantz Hi, not long winded at all, I find the 'audiophile' endlessly fascinating!
Roy Gregory, who probably merits a small tome dedicated solely to his exploits, Editor of Hifi Plus, endlessly pushes the 'benefits' of cabling especially Nordost, and then leaves to become Nordost's vice president of marketing!
He for whom I have zero respect by the way, neatly sums up the audiohiles attitude to B&O here.
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/highend2016/highend2016_overview.htm
Keith.
Roy Gregory, who probably merits a small tome dedicated solely to his exploits, Editor of Hifi Plus, endlessly pushes the 'benefits' of cabling especially Nordost, and then leaves to become Nordost's vice president of marketing!
He for whom I have zero respect by the way, neatly sums up the audiohiles attitude to B&O here.
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/highend2016/highend2016_overview.htm
Keith.
If I had my time( money) again I would go down this road or at least get them home and try them.
I like reproduced music in the home but I don't like much of the 'audiophile ' mentality I have come a across.
Very much like bumping heads with a religious cult or some hard core scientology clan but even more inane and self serving.
Nothing good happens when a bunch of self affirming, enabling humans get together I am afraid. Nothing 'special ' about the audiophile verity, it's your garden verify cultism.
I like reproduced music in the home but I don't like much of the 'audiophile ' mentality I have come a across.
Very much like bumping heads with a religious cult or some hard core scientology clan but even more inane and self serving.
Nothing good happens when a bunch of self affirming, enabling humans get together I am afraid. Nothing 'special ' about the audiophile verity, it's your garden verify cultism.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #58
Thomas I am sure you would like them, they are superb, in terms of a loudspeaker, but also in terms of how they remove the room, no other speaker apart from the Kii THREE does what they can.
They have a pair in the Exeter shop I believe.
Keith.
They have a pair in the Exeter shop I believe.
Keith.
Real shame, I walked past that shop long befor I spent so much and when I had a fair wedge in the bank.. I thought B&O were all gloss no substance thusly did not even consider them.
Idiot! Those speakers are less than I spent in total and my lounge would not be so... Padded
Even back then, I was under the influence of 'audiophile propaganda ' and all without having a clue.
That's why this place is so important! It's not so much anti audiophile but a place for honesty and reality through proof of performance rather than senseless, grossly self indulgent prose and propaganda you will get else where.
Nice to see you here frantzM, feel free to make yourself at home my friend
AJ Soundfield
Major Contributor
Eh? Where have you been for the last 20+ yrs sir?
(2nd time I've posted this) http://www.regonaudio.com/Gradient Revolution Loudspeaker.html
http://www.stereophile.com/content/...-john-atkinson-march-1997#skOqv85LXDLmVl9w.97
(Audiophile post-mortem) "Its modest appearance..."
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