Audiophiles, generally don't like class D amps!

[LightninBoy]

No one with pretentions of being a respected contributor should be using language like this.

Probably not, but as an ASR cohort myself I LOL'd

 

[ahofer]

Probably not, but as an ASR cohort myself I LOL'd

John’s vintage audio takes and electronics knowledge are part of the fabric of this place. Fine with me.

(But he’d object to it said the other way ‘round! Hypocrisy is the most common vice)

 

[Vive la dissonance!]

John’s vintage audio takes and electronics knowledge are part of the fabric of this place. Fine with me.

(But he’d object to it said the other way ‘round! Hypocrisy is the most common vice)

It's hardly his point of view in itself that seems objectionable; it's his way of crudely insulting everyone he is supposedly trying to convince, and the founder of this site.

 

[Dismayed]

Confirmation bias works both ways. Its just as easy to think it will sound good because it measures well.

That's not always the case- but IME this usually has to do with the measurements being an incomplete set. Simply going with 'trusting my ears' makes me really nervous; if I hear something wrong I want to be able to measure why that is so.

Measurements and 'sound quality' have to go hand in hand. If you can hear it, you should be able to measure it (it doesn't always work out the other way around, depending on what is being measured). I often find that the real issue is knowing what to measure and/or figuring out how to do it.

I'm in the camp of Daniel von Recklinghausen in this regard.

Of course you can measure it if it sounds different. But the measurement could be a double blind listening test. What audiophiles claim to hear needs to be proved.

 

[Vive la dissonance!]

Probably not, but as an ASR cohort myself I LOL'd

You know what, you're right. I'm a measurebator and proud of it!

Now, where's my t-shirt?

 

[dlaloum]

You know what, you're right. I'm a measurebator and proud of it!

Now, where's my t-shirt?

LOL, ASR the home of measurebators - definitely worthy of a T-Shirt!!

I'd wear that one too!

 

[jooc]

There are some that call them audiophile that dont like anything digital. And PWM modulation is for them digital.

But PWM modulation is not really digital and that methodology pre-dates what we usually think of as digital audio technology.

I get that converting input signal to a square wave before amplification "looks" digital, but it really shouldn't be considered that, at least not in the same way.

I don't think there's any audio-specific advantage to A/B amplifiers any more beyond looks and the coolness factor.

In that light, you can make huge, cool-looking class-Damps that will outperform any A/B amps out there. (Vendors can even charge an arm and a leg for them if that's what people want

 

[fpitas]

We don’t do that do we, ‘cast out’ surely not?

Obviously, we can, and do. Patience only goes so far.

 

[jooc]

BTW, one problem with Class D is that there are no ultra expensive amplifiers. High-end audiophiles like to buy expensive showcase products and none of those are class D (my own Mark Levinson amps being an exception).

I've said before that if you take something like the Aiyima A07, put it in a beautiful, large, expensive-looking silver box, hook up the inputs/outputs to the TPA3255 board and sell it for $3K as a new brand you'll have a lot of audiophiles telling you that *this* is how class-D amps should sound!

Just don't schedule any blind A/B listening sessions with the A07 and they'll be happy with that 3K spent.

 

[jooc]

I have nothing new to add but let me put my 2 cents in. .... Ninety to ninety-five percent of all modern motorcycles manufactured world wide meet practical efficiency, effectiveness, cost, and service life constraints. Most motorcycles world wide are in the 50CC to 200 cc range, by far. They serve transportation and work functions. These are real world products. The current line of Harley Davidson motorcycles are not real world products and are not meant to be. They are what we know as luxury and exotic goods, and often such goods are perversions of practical goods. Those markets thrive on illusion, perversion and exclusiveness. I....

This is an interesting take and I'm glad you made the comparison, but I'd say here's a more apt comparison:

Most A/B amplifiers sold new in 2023: $10K --> $65K Harley Davidson Limited edition Fatboy, chromed out with all options
Most Class D amps sold new in 2023: $2K --> $10K 250cc to 1000cc Japanese cruisers or track racing bikes

The Harleys are for a slightly different market, richer, older, who maybe think that the unbalanced rumble they hear from the Harley means *real* power.

That said, Harley makes a beautiful bike that's fun to drive long distances. It's just not going to outperform any of the Japanese bikes in any measurable way, including HP.

 

[jooc]

I'll go you one better. If it's possible, fashion a large, heavy enclosure with all the trappings of Class A/B circuitry, but somewhere down in the middle, hidden under all the rest, put a Class D board. Hook the Class D amp up and make it do all the work, and just use the rest of the circuitry for appearances.
I'll bet you anything that "audiophiles" will tell you that it sounds fantastic, much more "organic" than Class D, and that it's proof of Class A/B superiority.

Jim

Never know, put a real, un-fake tube stage in after the class D amp and you could simulate some of the sound these guys want. I often would like to hear my vinyl using a tube stage, it would be like time-travel and who knows, might sound good.

But I wouldn't pay a lot to add more distortion, no.

 

[jooc]

If you want to comment on a hobby were self delusion trumps all no need to look at audiophiles, golfers are much worse. At least audiophiles don’t dress up like Coco the clown when pursuing their hobby.

Enter: amateur road bike enthusiasts

.

 

[jooc]

The logical next step is not really class D. For me it seems like starting over and just getting rid of all the little boxes all together. Do we need 100 separate black boxes? The next logical step is active speakers with the ease of adjustment that you get with class D.

Agreed, but should point out that Sony, Klipshe, Audioengine, Edifier, many others make active speakers now with built-in DAC and amps.

I own a pair of Edifier 1700bts, and they are truly very good, and not just for the price. Basically they're a class-D dac-amp-speaker "stack" all in a speaker encloser.

The problem with all-in-one speakers is the same that afflicts all-in-one computers or 'smart tvs' or any consolidated component stack - if you become dissatisfied with any part of it, you can't swap it out, you're stuck with the whole thing.

Consider:

stack A: $49 SMSL DA-6 Amp (Infineon chip 70wpc) + $60 FX Audio DAC-X6 + $120 Sony SSCS5 = ~ $230
stack B: Edifier 1700BTS= ~ $200

I have both, and have done A/B testing, and stack A sounds a bit better than stack B, but not by much, and maybe not for all music.

But - I can't upgrade anything in stack B, so it will remain what it is. Stack A has dozens of options in each of the three components.

 

[mhardy6647]

I'll go you one better. If it's possible, fashion a large, heavy enclosure with all the trappings of Class A/B circuitry, but somewhere down in the middle, hidden under all the rest, put a Class D board. Hook the Class D amp up and make it do all the work, and just use the rest of the circuitry for appearances.
I'll bet you anything that "audiophiles" will tell you that it sounds fantastic, much more "organic" than Class D, and that it's proof of Class A/B superiority.

Jim

I have indeed thought more than once about doing that with some of the more attractive, but also farther (or is it further?) gone shelf queens here.
I also have a couple of cool but dysfunctional subwoofer amplifier carcassess (in nice enclosures) down in the basement that would be perfect for such Frankensteinian reanimation.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Enter: amateur road bike enthusiasts

.

Applies to any hobby that becomes an obsession.

 

[ahofer]

I have indeed thought more than once about doing that with some of the more attractive, but also farther (or is it further?) gone shelf queens here.
I also have a couple of cool but dysfunctional subwoofer amplifier carcassess (in nice enclosures) down in the basement that would be perfect for such Frankensteinian reanimation.

It would be pretty easy just to take an amp and short the interconnects to the speaker wire terminals and hide a class D closer to the speakers.

 

[ahofer]

Enter: amateur road bike enthusiasts

.

Hey, hey, I resemble that remark. And we're generally in better shape than golfers and hard-core audiophiles.

 

[roog]

I'll go you one better. If it's possible, fashion a large, heavy enclosure with all the trappings of Class A/B circuitry, but somewhere down in the middle, hidden under all the rest, put a Class D board. Hook the Class D amp up and make it do all the work, and just use the rest of the circuitry for appearances.
I'll bet you anything that "audiophiles" will tell you that it sounds fantastic, much more "organic" than Class D, and that it's proof of Class A/B superiority.

Jim

I plan to do something like this, I have in mind to take a not working amp or receiver chassis from the 70’s and swap in a couple of Ncore or Purifi modules with SMPS PSU.

 

[ahofer]

I plan to do something like this, I have in mind to take a not working amp or receiver chassis from the 70’s and swap in an Ncore or Purifi module with SMPS PSU.

Make sure it runs hot enough.

 

[roog]

Make sure it runs hot enough.

Agreed, I could bolt a metal bodied power resistor to the chassis and power that up!

My RPI streamer is built into a 1975 Sony cassette deck, the new replacement VU meter pcb fortuitously has an amber led glowing and when viewed through the top vents looks not unlike valves may be lurking beneath :0)