Audiophiles, generally don't like class D amps!

[antcollinet]

It seems to me that if you've built a system out of a bunch of idiosyncratic components, each of which attempts to compensate for the deficiencies of the others, replacing an inaccurate component with a strictly accurate, uncolored component is as likely to harm the perceived sound as it is to help it. So it may be the case that when people audition these amps, they hear things they dislike that originate elsewhere in the chain? Or maybe it is mostly confirmation bias.

Anyway, this seems like the problem with a purely subjective approach -- not building upon a foundation of measured accuracy is likely to lead to neurotic whack-a-mole behavior as you grope your way through the audio chain seeking improvements. It's great for the high-end audio industry because their customers keep coming back, but it seems like kind of a silly hobby. I have no problem paying for luxurious, cool-looking casework -- that's art! -- but I don't want to spend my life on a quixotic quest for audio bliss with no understanding of the fundamentals.

Nail: Head!

 

[Gorgonzola]

It seems to me that if you've built a system out of a bunch of idiosyncratic components, each of which attempts to compensate for the deficiencies of the others, replacing an inaccurate component with a strictly accurate, uncolored component is as likely to harm the perceived sound as it is to help it. So it may be the case that when people audition these amps, they hear things they dislike that originate elsewhere in the chain? Or maybe it is mostly confirmation bias.

Anyway, this seems like the problem with a purely subjective approach -- not building upon a foundation of measured accuracy is likely to lead to neurotic whack-a-mole behavior as you grope your way through the audio chain seeking improvements. It's great for the high-end audio industry because their customers keep coming back, but it seems like kind of a silly hobby. I have no problem paying for luxurious, cool-looking casework -- that's art! -- but I don't want to spend my life on a quixotic quest for audio bliss with no understanding of the fundamentals.

Right on, Dude. One my other most visited audio forum, it's extremely common to hear people layer on high-distortion tube components. Say, a tube phono and/or tube DAC driving a tube preamp driving a SET power amp driving horn speakers of dubious performance. Each stage is adding harmonic distortion and noise that is, IMHO, avoidable.

My advice to these people, (though they rarely listen), is this: it you must "color" your music try to do add in just a single layer of your reproduction chain. I'd suggest the preamp stage. Use ultra-low SINAD components up & downstream -- and get enough power amp WPC drive a flexible range of Toole-criterion speakers, (which excludes most horns).

 

[Koeitje]

Right on, Dude. One my other most visited audio forum, it's extremely common to hear people layer on high-distortion tube components. Say, a tube phono and/or tube DAC driving a tube preamp driving a SET power amp driving horn speakers of dubious performance. Each stage is adding harmonic distortion and noise that is, IMHO, avoidable.

My advice to these people, (though they rarely listen), is this: it you must "color" your music try to do add in just a single layer of your reproduction chain. I'd suggest the preamp stage. Use ultra-low SINAD components up & downstream -- and get enough power amp WPC drive a flexible range of Toole-criterion speakers, (which excludes most horns).

I'd argue that you should use a DSP to tailor the distortion to your liking (if increased THD is your thing).

 

[prerich]

Ok, I know I shouldn't, but I've been reading feed back on an audiophile site on experiences with various Class D based amplifiers. (Purifi, Ncore, and a couple of others less well known to me)

I expected a bit of bias towards older technologies, but it was close to 100% against class D.

What is it that these people are experiencing? They can't all be wrong can they?

• Is it that they miss the distortion/colour from their class AB amps?
• Has this become normalized/expected?
• Have they been programmed to dislike class D because everyone says it isn't as good, i.e bias?
• Is there actually something else at play here?

Everything I hold as important in audio and electronics in general is about achieving the required performance/specs, 'the truth', or at least as close as we can economically get, am i wrong, because these people would appear to say so.

You may want to reconsider your position.....audiophiles are falling in love with class D amplification.

 

[MaxBuck]

Not sure I would take Fremer's opinion as engineering gospel.

You've achieved a global maximum in the understatement category.

Fremer knows less about audio engineering than I do about Vedic philosophy.

 

[Vive la dissonance!]

You may want to reconsider your position.....audiophiles are falling in love with class D amplification.

Can confirm. 'Cause I'm rather one of them.

 

[Scott Lanterman]

I switched from tubes to Hypex Nilai, no regrets. Had an 80's dance party after a dinner of listening to jazz albums one night, and 500 watts per channel with no distortion only had me worried my neighbors were going to call the cops. All the new class D does is reveal the limits of my speakers.

 

[steve59]

Listening thru some hot jm labs/focal speakers I could hear a difference between a lumin class d int and peachtree class d, but I couldn't hear a difference between the lumin and anthem a/b int. To say one was better would require knowing how each recording is supposed to sound. There's tube and class a lovers out there that think all us solid state guys are chasing our tails. All I know is my dime, my decision.

 

[nowonas]

I guess you know nothing about class D topography and how the PW modulation is actually produced. Nothing is instantaneous.

Not sure if you understood my comment. My comment was concerning Class D and that you can not compare the slew rate with other topologies. The slew rate in class D amplifiers is limited to the filter. As others in this thread has cited Bruno Putsey I will do the same:

Slew rate does not have the same significance in class D amplifiers as in linear amplifiers. In
linear amplifiers, slew rate is dictated by the bias current of the driver stage. A very high slew rate
is required to insure that the open-loop THD does not increase with frequency inside the audio
band. Typically, a good linear amplifier is designed to have a slew rate at least an order of
magnitude above what is required for full power at 20kHz.
In a class D amplifier, slew rate is determined solely by the output filter. The actual power stage
will happily swing from minus to plus full scale in 20ns (something it does all the time),
corresponding to 4kV/us on a 100W amplifier.
The output slew rate is ultimately limited by what comes out of the output filter in response to a
full-scale step. Since the limiting factor is a linear circuit (the passive output filter), the distortion
mechanism that linear amplifiers need to avoid by targeting high slew rates is not present in class
D amplifiers. As long as slew rate suffices to reproduce 20kHz at full power, there is nothing to
worry about.

Reference:

https://d1.amobbs.com/bbs_upload782111/files_28/ourdev_548668.pdf

Noise shaping integration takes time to happen. Output integrator takes time - even if the speaker coil is used as inductance, it is still a low-pass filter at modulating frequency.

https://www.analog.com/en/technical-articles/fundamentals-of-class-d-amplifiers.html

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[steve59]

There's audiophiles that recommend the Jeff Rowland class D amps, and the Aavic class D comes with much praise also, unfortunately those brands don't offer the same price savings most class d brands do.

 

[Purité Audio]

In the case of both of your examples the ‘amplifier’ part of both amplifiers is inexpensive the milled from solid case is very expensive.
Keith

 

[Fontie]

I've used the "I own a Ken Ishiwata designed Marantz amplifier" line from time to time when faced with such people. They forget about the PM-10 and the Ruby

i would say you are great fun at parties..

 

[goryu]

In the case of both of your examples the ‘amplifier’ part of both amplifiers is inexpensive the milled from solid case is very expensive.
Keith

No doubt there is that market segment that is willing to pay for style over substance, or in that rare case, substance with style. It is amazing though to see what people will pay for a fancy box, despite the product having lesser performance than other products at a fraction of the price.

 

[Purité Audio]

I don’t have a problem with someone buying a smart bit of kit, but manufacturers tend to imply that the cost includes an improvement in sound quality which it rarely/never does.
Keith

 

[goryu]

I don’t have a problem with someone buying a smart bit of kit, but manufacturers tend to imply that the cost includes an improvement in sound quality which it rarely/never does.
Keith

Indeed, if someone wants to spend 3-4-5 times what a better performing, albeit less physically attractive perhaps, item costs, that's their prerogative. But yes, let's be honest when it comes to performance.

 

[chouca]

The Rowland casework is totally droolworthy. And the switches, volume knobs, binding posts! I'm not sure what I'd pay as an incremental markup for it, but probably at least 30%.

 

[Ricardus]

There's audiophiles that recommend the Jeff Rowland class D amps, and the Aavic class D comes with much praise also, unfortunately those brands don't offer the same price savings most class d brands do.

Put anything in a fancy case and "audiophiles" will think it sounds better.

 

[Galliardist]

i would say you are great fun at parties..

The only audiophile conversation I’ve had at a party, I got a twenty minute lecture on the best years for different NOS Mullard tubes.

You’d still prefer him to me.

 

[CDMC]

Once I realized I was not an audiophile and accepted Class D into my heart, I found peace. I now preach Class D whenever I can.

 

[JktHifi]

Class D on my Yamaha soundbar for TV and Class AB on my Onkyo stereo amp for Music. I need both of them eventhough sometimes Shazam can not recognize the title of song come from the soundbar.