Audio phenomenon with violins

[PingWine]

Often when I listen to classical music there's a violin that makes a long, pretty still note. In my small 21m^3 room it seems that the soundwaves have so much time to accumulate they start hurting my ears. What's the term for this kind of behavior?

Also it makes me question why it is said that reflections are good for listening to music. Maybe horizontal early reflection give a bigger sense of scale but other than that, the bare walls of my small bedroom only seem to amplify this painful effect.

 

[ctrl]

The following is my own theory about this phenomenon (can't provide any sources) - so it can be total crap

If you have good headphones, you should use them to listen to the relevant music tracks. If the phenomenon does not occur there, it is most likely not due to the recording.

The usual suspects would be resonances and distortion, but most of the time this phenomenon occurs even if there are no abnormalities.

In my experience, one possible explanation for this phenomenon is that the correlation of the overtones to the fundamental changes too much - found this frequently with vocals, piano, violin,...

It becomes especially unpleasant (for me personally) when an overtone is in the range of the ear canal resonance (around 2.7kHz) and is amplified in relation to the fundamental.

The reason for this is either an uneven sound radiation of the loudspeaker or/and an uneven sound absorption/reflection of the listening room.
Both causes certain frequency ranges to be highlighted in the "total sound level" (direct sound plus diffuse sound).

But to better isolate the possible causes, it would be helpful if you could give us one or two easily accessible music recordings (via youtube or streaming provider), with a time stamp at which the phenomenon occurs.

 

[PingWine]

The following is my own theory about this phenomenon (can't provide any sources) - so it can be total crap

If you have good headphones, you should use them to listen to the relevant music tracks. If the phenomenon does not occur there, it is most likely not due to the recording.

The usual suspects would be resonances and distortion, but most of the time this phenomenon occurs even if there are no abnormalities.

In my experience, one possible explanation for this phenomenon is that the correlation of the overtones to the fundamental changes too much - found this frequently with vocals, piano, violin,...

It becomes especially unpleasant (for me personally) when an overtone is in the range of the ear canal resonance (around 2.7kHz) and is amplified in relation to the fundamental.

The reason for this is either an uneven sound radiation of the loudspeaker or/and an uneven sound absorption of the listening room.
Both causes certain frequency ranges to be highlighted in the "total sound level" (direct sound plus diffuse sound).

But to better isolate the possible causes, it would be helpful if you could give us one or two easily accessible music recordings (via youtube or streaming provider), with a time stamp at which the phenomenon occurs.

Yeah it never happends with headphones. It's a room acoustics thing

 

[Chromatischism]

I have this problem when people talk in a small home room such as a bedroom. Especially females. I always want to ask them to talk quieter.

Look up the term hyperacusis. Might not apply here but good knowledge anyway.

 

[Orfanik]

Females are sometimes so agressive

 

[ctrl]

Yeah it never happends with headphones. It's a room acoustics thing

Of course a bedroom with bare walls is not optimal, and I don't know the sidewall distance of the speakers, but in most cases the radiation and tuning of the speakers contribute a lot to such effects. Only when the measurements are inconspicuous should the causes be determined on the listening room alone. Has the speaker already been tested here?

With a specific EQ you can certainly reduce the effect.

 

[PingWine]

Of course a bedroom with bare walls is not optimal, and I don't know the sidewall distance of the speakers, but in most cases the radiation and tuning of the speakers contribute a lot to such effects. Only when the measurements are inconspicuous should the causes be determined on the listening room alone. Has the speaker already been tested here?

With a specific EQ you can certainly reduce the effect.

The speakers are KH 80 DSP's. I'm pretty sure they've been thoroughly measured, at least twice

 

[andreasmaaan]

The speakers are KH 80 DSP's. I'm pretty sure they've been thoroughly measured, at least twice

Ha Perhaps your headphones are less neutral than your speakers, and the recording you're hearing this effect on is a bit peaky at those frequencies?

Anyway, something you could do to test the hypothesis that room acoustics are involved: Take one of your speakers (shouldn't be hard with KH80!) into a different room or (even better) outdoors. Does the effect still occur?

If no, take the speaker back into your normal listening room and see if the effect occurs when you're standing/sitting in different locations in the room.

 

[ctrl]

The speakers are KH 80 DSP's. I'm pretty sure they've been thoroughly measured, at least twice

These loudspeakers certainly don't cause any major problems. However, they are first and foremost tools for studio use and are tuned accordingly.

For Hifi listening they might be corrected a bit in the range of 2-5.5kHz (only a listening test can decide that).

I would try to lower the range 2-5.5kHz a bit. Maybe start with Q=1@3700Hz and -0.75dB.
If it brings an improvement, just test some variations in 0.25dB steps (and minor Q and center frequency changes).

 

[dasdoing]

you are probably experiencing "flutter echo". look it up

flutter echo should be hearable when you clap your hands. it's a very high pitched echo in a room

 

[PingWine]

you are probably experiencing "flutter echo". look it up

flutter echo should be hearable when you clap your hands. it's a very high pitched echo in a room

I looked it up but it isn't it. I don't hear a high picked echo or any metallic ringing while clapping.

The problem seems to be just too much envelopment in the room.

For example the note at 1:53 is absolutely painful with my speakers but absolutely fine with my flat headphones.

 

[raif71]

Females are sometimes so agressive

 

[Frank Dernie]

I always experience a hard unpleasant sound in sparsely furnished rooms with parallel bare walls and/or uncarpeted floor.
OTOH I don't have spotify but assuming the same album has the same timing on Qobuz as spotify the loudest instrument at 1:53 is a flute but it is neither harsh nor excessively loud.
You must be exciting a resonance.

 

[detlev24]

[...] Also it makes me question why it is said that reflections are good for listening to music. Maybe horizontal early reflection give a bigger sense of scale but other than that, the bare walls of my small bedroom only seem to amplify this painful effect.

Early Reflections Are Not Beneficial, by Ethan Winer.

 

[ctrl]

For example the note at 1:53 is absolutely painful with my speakers but absolutely fine with my flat headphones.

on Qobuz as spotify the loudest instrument at 1:53 is a flute but it is neither harsh nor excessively loud.
You must be exciting a resonance.

I come to the same conclusion.
But we are already a good deal further along with this. Since the flute does not produce overtones with high sound pressure, it can probably be assumed that the fundamental at 1.3kHz one of the fundamentals at 0.8-1.3kHz causes the effect.

Here the notes around 01:53 as frequency spectrum:

 

[PingWine]

I always experience a hard unpleasant sound in sparsely furnished rooms with parallel bare walls and/or uncarpeted floor.
OTOH I don't have spotify but assuming the same album has the same timing on Qobuz as spotify the loudest instrument at 1:53 is a flute but it is neither harsh nor excessively loud.
You must be exciting a resonance.

Oh yeah It's flute not violin xD Feeling stupid
But yeah I don't know man, could be anything

 

[andreasmaaan]

Oh yeah It's flute not violin xD Feeling stupid
But yeah I don't know man, could be anything

No, it really is very likely a problem that you can pinpoint and solve (if you want to)!

 

[ctrl]

Oh yeah It's flute not violin xD Feeling stupid
But yeah I don't know man, could be anything

If it is mainly only about this frequency range, it should be possible to isolate the problem.

Are there objects that could function as resonators (small alcoves, fireplace, ...)? Does the behavior change if the speakers are positioned differently?...
Is the listening position free from possible (resonating, reflecting) influences...
You didn't give us much information about what you have already tried.

In the range 0.8-1.2 kHz the horizontal angular frequency responses of the KH80 show increased sound pressure, this could be treated with EQ.

 

[PingWine]

No, it really is very likely a problem that you can pinpoint and solve (if you want to)!

Pretty sure it's just a matter of getting acoustic panels and stuffing my walls with them

 

[andreasmaaan]

Pretty sure it's just a matter of getting acoustic panels and stuffing my walls with them

I would re-read @ctrl's posts