Audio Note speakers

[Richard Austen]

This is very nice, of course, but I find it hard to believe that, with most recordings, an AN system sounds more like what has actually been recorded, the original performance, than a more neutral/'accurate' system. Psychoacoustics? An 'extra large bbc-dip'? Probably it's more complicated.

There is this engineer named Nelson Pass. who has made high-powered SS amplifiers for many years (Pass Labs). But he liked the sound of SET amplifiers and wanted to make, essentially, a SS version - called S.I.T. (Static Induction Transistor) They were invented in the 70s and sold from the likes of Sony. Nelson has revamped the approach (because "they sound better" than all his mega-watt SS amps.

It's more than frequency response - several people here have said - hey if you want to soften a bright speaker - just turn the treble knob down and you will FIX the Revel speaker - well gee - treble knobs work both ways - if the treble is too far down on the AN E - you can turn the treble knob UP to FIX it - the truth is the treble knob doesn't FIX it. I have Been through graphic equalizers and Behringer Parametric Equalizers to know they don't fix it. But to each their own.

 

[Ron Texas]

I never heard the specific speaker model reviewed by Stereophile - Audio Note came out with the E/SPE HE which was considerably cheaper and uses different (HEMP woofers over paper) drivers and crossover.

Art Dudley liked the sound of it better than the E/Lexus Signature and he bought the E/SPE HE Hemp speakers

https://www.stereophile.com/content...re-loudspeaker-audio-note-espe-he-august-2008

Audio note took basically the same loudspeaker proliferating it into many combinations and permutations of paper or hemp cones, copper or silver wire, different grades of capacitors and external or internal crossovers which explains why you never heard of a particular model. I'm willing to bet the overriding difference is damage to the buyer's bank account. This tactic of building nearly the same thing in many variations is used by another one man company, Tekton. I find the comparison to be irresistible as neither adhere to the design principles developed by Toole and Olive.

 

[Sal1950]

There is this engineer named Nelson Pass. who has made high-powered SS amplifiers for many years (Pass Labs). But he liked the sound of SET amplifiers and wanted to make, essentially, a SS version - called S.I.T. (Static Induction Transistor)

LOL, you would serve yourself so much better by not going on and on about the things you "think" you know,
be quiet and start listening to the many true EE and other field experts here. Your very last posting on Nelson Pass
only serves to clearly reveal all you really don't know about the man.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Sorry I made an error - AN did not claim that the corner's reflect wave follows the direct wave at 4ms - I got that mixed up with another manufacturer - AN's claim is that they pair match their speakers to within 0.2dB https://www.audionote.co.uk/loudspeakers

Huh??? What on earth??? What has "corner's reflect wave follows the direct wave at 4ms" to do with your previous assertion

the speakers are braced but lightly damped to release energy out of the cabinet as fast as possible.

which is obviously wrong, according to Stereophile's measurements I posted earlier?

And how "they pair match their speakers to within 0.2dB" is connected with anything you and I wrote before?

 

[Mart68]

There is this engineer named Nelson Pass. who has made high-powered SS amplifiers for many years (Pass Labs). But he liked the sound of SET amplifiers and wanted to make, essentially, a SS version - called S.I.T. (Static Induction Transistor) They were invented in the 70s and sold from the likes of Sony. Nelson has revamped the approach (because "they sound better" than all his mega-watt SS amps.

It's more than frequency response - several people here have said - hey if you want to soften a bright speaker - just turn the treble knob down and you will FIX the Revel speaker - well gee - treble knobs work both ways - if the treble is too far down on the AN E - you can turn the treble knob UP to FIX it - the truth is the treble knob doesn't FIX it. I have Been through graphic equalizers and Behringer Parametric Equalizers to know they don't fix it. But to each their own.

Typical bass and treble tone controls are far too crude a device to fix even a minor issue.

If the speaker is badly flawed nothing will fix it. You have to start with a speaker that is fundamentally right, then use PEQ judiciously.

All this has been heavily researched. We know what the problems are, we know what causes them, we know what the solutions are.

The Audionote way is not one of them, even though it may work for a small number of people like yourself. Even then, there are better, cheaper ways of skinning the cat.

 

[DanielT]

Well audio shows are hardly representative of sound - if it sounds great - that's good to know it means it can sound good even in horrible rooms. If it sounds bad - well lots of things can sound bad on any given day and in any given room.

I ranked YG Acoustics and MBL dead last at CES as the worst sounding rooms of the show - the next show I attended I ranked them the top two rooms. Audio Note had two rooms at CES/The Show and the cheaper room sounded better than the expensive room - by the last day the expensive room sounded better with changing positions. The AN room sounded poor at the second show where I ranked YG acoustics/MBL and the Bob Hodus Tape Project (using Focal speakers) rooms as the best sounding. All of which were Solid State - The AN room was boomy and coloured.

I try to think of what caused that - At CES/The Show - the AN system was at the Flamingo and old concrete building with solid walls - the later show they were in a room where there was a shared door between rooms and the wall would shake if you punched it - behin the speaker in the corner was an air conditioner that the rear port would fire at.

The MBL had a much bigger room at the second show and YG Acoustics had a much smaller room. I don't know much about MBL's omnidirectional - people say they only play well when loud - and they were playing it loud and I felt it was playing well. My other favourites at the second show were Von Gaylord and Acoustic Zen Crescendo II speakers on Triode Labs tube amps.

I currently own some Wyred4Sound mAmp monoblock Class D amps and an affordable option if I bring in speakers that require more power. 8-watt SET amps are limiting - so the 430 watts (4ohm) mAmp monoblocks should be enough for most speakers - especially in Hong Kong-sized living spaces. (well so is 8 watts but anyway).

If your goal is to critically listen and evaluate speakers, fairs are hardly the optimal place to do that. They are mostly for checking things out, chatting with like-minded people, or as mhardy6647 put it in #55 regarding HiFi fairs and their visitors:...... and hang out with some middle-aged-to-old, paunchy, balding, mostly bespectacled, mostly white guys with questionable personal hygiene practices and a stunted sense of fashion?

Vintage Audio Advertising

No sex please, we're British. About as simple as it gets.

audiosciencereview.com

I usually go to a vintage DIY fair so I know there is quite a lot in what mhardy6647 says. However, we tend to be relatively clean with good hygiene, I must say.
But middle-aged-to-old farts with a bad sense of fashion. Yep, that's right.

Pictures of the participants, I am one of them, here:

Hifi Vintage DIY fair with pictures

I visited this fair yesterday! DIY & Vintage meeting in Mölnlycke Here is a short report. When: 6 November 2021 Where: Country: Sweden City: Gothenburg I took pictures myself BUT most were so damn blurred so I borrow pictures from this thread, taken by other participants. Pictures taken from...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[DanielT]

Maybe because a few people, including me, were going off topic about older speakers without comparing them with AN anymore.

Regarding OT. As long as it is possible to draw comparisons, parallels and so on I think, on the whole, is ok.It is expressions of spontaneity and creativity and moves a thread forward. BUT if we were to start talking about the best recipe for meatballs, for example, I think we have gone too far. In any case, what OT is and what policies you should have around it is something that is discussed in all kinds of forums. Okay that was OT about OT.

So what should we compare AN to? What AN mainly points out on its website is:

We are the largest European manufacturer of ultra-performance valve-based audio equipment, with a world wide distribution network.

Thus, I see their speakers as products that are intended to work well with tube amps. Which then leads to the question, what are good tube amp speakers? How should they be? AN themselves:

The pedestrian appearance of the Audio Note loudspeakers are well calculated. The front baffle dimensions and depth of the cabinet are an integral part of the wave launch support and controlled diffraction characteristics pioneered by Peter Snell in the 1970's. Smaller, narrow baffles, like those found in most of today's "fashion victim" designs currently masquerading as quality loudspeakers achieve nothing other than to compromise mid-range frequency and tonal colourations.

Music's Finest Conductor | Audio Note (UK) England

Audio Note (UK) is Europe’s largest and most prestigious manufacturer of ultra performance valve based home audio systems. A vast range of different options is available to suit every music lover’s requirements, As the company’s motto says; ‘Music’s Finest Conductor’.

www.audionote.co.uk

We have already dealt with Snell but slim baffles and fashion? You can see it like that, or so it was, but nowadays with the vintage craze we have speakers such as Wharfedale Linton 85th Heritage. Wide baffle and maybe even nowadays thanks to that baffle width incredibly popular? But ok, arguably, it's the whole vintage package, with its looks that is the reason for its success. The plus that they have a good price, are well constructed, have good performance and so on.

But the Lintons are not suitable for low power tube amps because they only have a sensitivity of 85dB.

Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary Speaker Review

Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

How many speakers with sensitivity around 92 dB (or higher), with suitable tube amp nice impedance curve, decently low distortion and good FR are there? I can't think of anyone other than Heco Direkt as I mentioned in #61? And now I'm talking about real sensitivity, not the conjured high sensitivity that Klipsch indulged in.

DIY is another thing because then you can tailor as needed, for example suitability for tube amps. Here is an example:

Impedance correction​

If you want to use a valve amplifier with this speaker an impedance correction should be employed......Price per impedance correction for one speaker, to be mounted on a small wooden board.

PowerCor Light

Shelf speaker,PowerCor Light,bass reflex,loudspeaker,DIY kit,Wavecor TW030WA11(wc-tw030wa11-01), SB Audience BIANCO-10MW200(sba-b-10MW200)

www.lautsprechershop.de

Edit:
Relatively high sensitivity at the expense of not going down as deep in frequency so subwoofer may be needed together with those PowerCor Light.

 

[Rõlnnbacke]

(DanielT quoted:) The pedestrian appearance of the Audio Note loudspeakers are well calculated. The front baffle dimensions and depth of the cabinet are an integral part of the wave launch support and controlled diffraction characteristics pioneered by Peter Snell in the 1970's. Smaller, narrow baffles, like those found in most of today's "fashion victim" designs currently masquerading as quality loudspeakers achieve nothing other than to compromise mid-range frequency and tonal colourations.*

*Isn't this misleading of audio note, critisizing other designs of colouring? ('Isn't it ironic?') If people didn't fall for it I would find it embarrassing, in a way.
(DanielT, I hope you don't mind I added a few things on the quote.)

 

[Alexander Gödde]

Googled "audio note measurements" and came across this https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/audionote-dac-1/

I don't know Chinese, but the numbers make it clear why the following is inserted a few times in the review

 

[Mart68]

How many speakers with sensitivity around 92 dB (or higher), with suitable tube amp nice impedance curve, decently low distortion and good FR are there? I can't think of anyone other than Heco Direkt as I mentioned in #61? And now I'm talking about real sensitivity, not the conjured high sensitivity that Klipsch indulged in.

.

Not many!

I used a single ended 6 watt amp with a passive pre for a while.

With some of these vintage Akai speakers



94db, easy high impedance load. Those bass drivers are fifteens.

It was okay, but my room is quite large and if you cranked it then you could hear the sound gradually turn to mush as the amp soft-clipped.

I think you have to have proper horns with low power SET - unless you live in a broom cupboard.

 

[Anton D]

Googled "audio note measurements" and came across this https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/audionote-dac-1/

I don't know Chinese, but the numbers make it clear why the following is inserted a few times in the review

It looks like he's trying to describe the sound of a horn, or maybe corner loading?

 

[DanielT]

Not many!

I used a single ended 6 watt amp with a passive pre for a while.

With some of these vintage Akai speakers



94db, easy high impedance load. Those bass drivers are fifteens.

It was okay, but my room is quite large and if you cranked it then you could hear the sound gradually turn to mush as the amp soft-clipped.

I think you have to have proper horns with low power SET - unless you live in a broom cupboard.

Heh heh, those Akai speakers were weird and cool at the same time. Looks like a nightmare placement of the drivers, with today's view of driver placement that is.

Horns are, as you say, a solution. Or build some corner speakers (ported or horn), with the benefits of acoustic boost it provides. Corner speakers has other disadvantages but as usual it is a question of compromises. In this scenario, in any case, for the one who insist on having a low around 5-10 watt tube amp that powers the speakers.

Old school using the corners:

 

[Mart68]

Heh heh, those Akai speakers were weird and cool at the same time. Looks like a nightmare placement of the drivers, with today's view of driver placement that is.

Horns are, as you say, a solution. Or build some corner speakers (ported or horn), with the benefits of acoustic boost it provides. Corner speakers has other disadvantages but as usual it is a question of compromises. In this scenario, in any case, for the one who insist on having a low around 5-10 watt tube amp that powers the speakers.

Old school using the corners:
View attachment 367079

The 'Patrician' would be $1150 dollar in today's money. But these days you'd need at least two of course.

 

[MattHooper]

I get the "if it measures better, it will sound better" school of thought. I was in that school - but it just hasn't panned out when I do the listening. The AN system sounds "clearer" than the Bryston/PMC, Bricasti/ATC, Benchmark/Genelec set-ups when I have tried them - those systems sound brighter but that seems to me to be what passes for "accuracy" = The music is fuller and richer on the AN systems - the vocals are better defined the bass is full-bodied. As one reviewer described it - the pro system is like looking at a spectacular view through the "cleanest windows on the planet" - the AN System was like being outside on the deck experiencing that view firsthand - breathing in the air - and also breathing in some pollution that you don't breath in with the pro systems. I take the warts and all being on the deck experience that view over looking through the glass any day.

Again - a subjective response obviously but again it's an AN speaker thread and I am offering what most people who like this sound feel about the system.

I look back at some of the reviews over the years and I often think of this one as, yes, an almost religious experience (not being religious I can't say) but this is sort of it in audio. Holy Overthetop raving, Batman!

"I listened to one of Todd Garfinkle's M•A recordings, Sheila Jordon and Harve Swartz's "You Don't Know What Love Is." Wow.../.... the AN system gave me all of that—the room, the bass, and the woman, most of all the woman.../... My intellect tells me that there's no way a 25Wpc amplifier can control that, even on 95dB speakers, but the Audio Notes handled those passages better than any other system I'd heard at CES .../... Next came Nina Simone's "Little Girl Blue" and I was practically in tears. Everything just sounded so right. I had goosebumps .../... Forget best sound of show, for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the Audio Note system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard .../... After the Audio Note demo. the rest was noise, so I quit on a winner. Not many people who come to Vegas can say that." Ongaku Means Ecstasy

While I'm not sympathetic to Audio Note's pricing schemes, I'm sympathetic to your overall experience in preferring Audio Note systems to what you've heard (all regular ASR caveats presumed).

I feel I've had plenty of similar experiences. More recently, a reviewer pal called me to say "You have to come over and give me a sanity check. You have to hear this..."
He regularly uses big assed solid state monoblocks, with various high end speakers, at that time with some big Estelon speakers which I'd listened to numerous times there.
But he'd got in a single ended tube amp to review and since they had trouble running the big speakers he threw in a pair of old, relatively cheap, very small thin Totem floor standing speakers (Totem Acoustic’s Sky Tower) he'd recently been given. (I'm not a big fan of Totem...I've heard tons of their models).

I was as blown away as he was. The sound was utterly ravishing! Huge soundstage, tons of space between instruments, beautiful rich but controlled bass, and just a gorgeous organic timbre to everything. I've listened to tons of system combos at his place, just before that the big Estelons and big solid state amps, and I've rarely heard sound that simply engaging. I wanted to listen to it FAR more than most of what I've heard in his set up, or in many other set ups. He had similar thoughts, couldn't believe it.

Later on he'd shipped back the single ended tube amps, and had the Totems on his main floor running from a hegel amp. And it was just...ok. It didn't have near the "I can't stop listening" factor, the richness. The combo of those speakers, his other room and that single ended amp was a great example of "synergy" IMO.

 

[ta240]

While I'm not sympathetic to Audio Note's pricing schemes, I'm sympathetic to your overall experience in preferring Audio Note systems to what you've heard (all regular ASR caveats presumed).

I feel I've had plenty of similar experiences. More recently, a reviewer pal called me to say "You have to come over and give me a sanity check. You have to hear this..."
He regularly uses big assed solid state monoblocks, with various high end speakers, at that time with some big Estelon speakers which I'd listened to numerous times there.
But he'd got in a single ended tube amp to review and since they had trouble running the big speakers he threw in a pair of old, relatively cheap, very small thin Totem floor standing speakers (Totem Acoustic’s Sky Tower) he'd recently been given. (I'm not a big fan of Totem...I've heard tons of their models).

I was as blown away as he was. The sound was utterly ravishing! Huge soundstage, tons of space between instruments, beautiful rich but controlled bass, and just a gorgeous organic timbre to everything. I've listened to tons of system combos at his place, just before that the big Estelons and big solid state amps, and I've rarely heard sound that simply engaging. I wanted to listen to it FAR more than most of what I've heard in his set up, or in many other set ups. He had similar thoughts, couldn't believe it.

Later on he'd shipped back the single ended tube amps, and had the Totems on his main floor running from a hegel amp. And it was just...ok. It didn't have near the "I can't stop listening" factor, the richness. The combo of those speakers, his other room and that single ended amp was a great example of "synergy" IMO.

The good old "I can't stop listening" factor. I had a pair of old Paradigm Phantoms hooked up to a First Watt M2 clone in my 'office', I'd finish at the computer and just sit there with my eyes closed listening.
As I cycle amps through my main setup I find with some I'll go most of the day without turning them on and others when we are watching a movie or show, I just keep thinking "I hope this is over soon so I can listen to music"

 

[Sal1950]

I was as blown away as he was. The sound was utterly ravishing! Huge soundstage, tons of space between instruments, beautiful rich but controlled bass, and just a gorgeous organic timbre to everything. I've listened to tons of system combos at his place, just before that the big Estelons and big solid state amps, and I've rarely heard sound that simply engaging. I wanted to listen to it FAR more than most of what I've heard in his set up, or in many other set ups. He had similar thoughts, couldn't believe it.

BS. Save your fairy tales for the little children Matt.
I ain't buying it.

 

[MattHooper]

BS. Save your fairy tales for the little children Matt.
I ain't buying it.

LOL. Did you need a trigger warning? ;-)

 

[MattHooper]

The good old "I can't stop listening" factor. I had a pair of old Paradigm Phantoms hooked up to a First Watt M2 clone in my 'office', I'd finish at the computer and just sit there with my eyes closed listening.
As I cycle amps through my main setup I find with some I'll go most of the day without turning them on and others when we are watching a movie or show, I just keep thinking "I hope this is over soon so I can listen to music"

Yep. It’s the single most important factor for me, especially when auditioning gear.

 

[Steven Holt]

. It’s the single most important factor for me,

Matt, what do you mean 'can't stop listening'? Your Old Lady calls from the other room, I pretty much guarantee you'll stop listening!!

 

[Richard Austen]

While I'm not sympathetic to Audio Note's pricing schemes, I'm sympathetic to your overall experience in preferring Audio Note systems to what you've heard (all regular ASR caveats presumed).

I feel I've had plenty of similar experiences. More recently, a reviewer pal called me to say "You have to come over and give me a sanity check. You have to hear this..."
He regularly uses big assed solid state monoblocks, with various high end speakers, at that time with some big Estelon speakers which I'd listened to numerous times there.
But he'd got in a single ended tube amp to review and since they had trouble running the big speakers he threw in a pair of old, relatively cheap, very small thin Totem floor standing speakers (Totem Acoustic’s Sky Tower) he'd recently been given. (I'm not a big fan of Totem...I've heard tons of their models).

I was as blown away as he was. The sound was utterly ravishing! Huge soundstage, tons of space between instruments, beautiful rich but controlled bass, and just a gorgeous organic timbre to everything. I've listened to tons of system combos at his place, just before that the big Estelons and big solid state amps, and I've rarely heard sound that simply engaging. I wanted to listen to it FAR more than most of what I've heard in his set up, or in many other set ups. He had similar thoughts, couldn't believe it.

Later on he'd shipped back the single ended tube amps, and had the Totems on his main floor running from a hegel amp. And it was just...ok. It didn't have near the "I can't stop listening" factor, the richness. The combo of those speakers, his other room and that single ended amp was a great example of "synergy" IMO.

There are ultimately only so many ways you can say the same thing. It either moves you or it doesn't and if one system moves you over and over and over - and the other ones do not and do not and do not - at some point you have to concede that "however the designers did it" worked. And if it does it long enough with a large number of people (especially very experienced listeners) then there is something to it.

All you can do as a consumer is go to a dealer who is the representative of the brand - sit in the chair and listen to the system the dealer sets up (under instruction from the manufacturers).

Then you evaluate it. It's the same with cars - I live in Hong Kong and I don't need a car here - but when I return to Canada in a few years I will need one - so I have started my research now so that maybe when I return in 2028/2029 - I can buy a second-hand model - 2024-2026 and I'll be familiar with all the cars now when they are secondhand. All of this is well and good - but until I actually sit in the car I won't actually know if I like the seats or the driving position of whether it will feel spacious or claustrophobic. Audi had a mini car show and I sat in a Sedan and hated it - I felt too cramped. A nice looking car - the interior seemed nice - I know the reliability leaves much to be desired so it wasn't likely on my list for that alone - I can read all about it but for me it was uncomfortable.

Last year I went to Mazda and sat in a Miata because I wanted to know whether I would fit into the thing - I can read all the raves in the world but if it's too small I can cross it off the list - the thing felt like it was made just for me - perfect fit. Maybe as a second car.

The point is that no matter what the babble is - I need to be convinced when the music plays. I sat in front of Revel Ultima Salon 2 speakers with the near Flagship Luxman system not long ago - C900u preamp and their M-900u power amp capable of 1200 watts at 1 ohm. These are big heavy hulking amplifiers. I have auditioned the Revel Ultima Salon 2 speakers now four times over the years in different rooms all with large hulking amplifiers. Being that the speaker is the best that Harman International (Floyd Toole) makes and I like the looks - and I am fortunate to be someone who can afford to buy them - they just don't do it for me. I can't get involved in the music. It's like the Audi - it may be better than the Miata but it ain't better for me. I keep trying these systems again and again and will continue to - Maybe one of them will grab me.

At the Hong Kong Audio Show - My four favourite rooms were
Meyer Sound Laboratories speakers with Accuphase
PSI Audio speakers with Diatonic Precision S.I.T. amplifiers
AVID HiFI (their complete system)
Audio Physic speakers with Analog Domain

Not a tube in sight.

But then I also wouldn't say I was emotionally involved really - it was more about what impressed me the most.