ATC speakers / Monitors

[Purité Audio]

Free space behind speakers in these installs has no impact on the sound in the room, the front wall is so thick and heavy, that any sound that emits from the back cannot be transferred to the actual room. It is about decoupling, not about absorbing.

Just to be clear you are saying that speakers can be mounted in free space, in the middle of the room say and because the wall behind them ( the ‘front’ wall) is extremely solid then the reflected bass from that very solid wall will have no effect?
Keith

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Regardless of this arguement aside, I just wonders, when a pair of speakers are having a specifically designed room for it, by the engineer who knows the speaker going to be installed well, treat with geometry, absorbtion, diffraction etc. IMO any half decent speakers in the mixing (MLP) will sound fantastic, where no speaker in a home environment where a hell lot more compromises are present. but when that's the thing to compare, then it's like comparing a complete package to a single component. IF hearing such a Northwards room is so important, than why can you say it's the best in the world (sorry if I exagerrated) when other studio builders did world class studios using Genelec, Neumann, PMC etc. to build.

From my limited english, I think nobody really questioned that built for the installed ATC room setup will sound great, and any other speaker, say put on stands or put on the consoles won't sound as nice (sheer driver sizes of the sofit mout speaker regardless of brand) should have cleaner and less distortion at reasonably high SPL. But when a speaker need all that cost to really kicking anything domestic out of the way, it didn't make it the true holy grail of speaker, as you can't really share with someone with a glass of wine or sit on a comfortable sofa in that no?.. and personally, I will be curious if you could get a REW and mic to measure the MLP in room response, I guess it would be really close to being flat/near one of a target curve without say me putting my genelecs on a desk of a Gaming PC, I believe all those sound better are related to clean SPL and real flat and good FR

But that has been exactly my point. Different speakers, different design goals and different implementations. They are ALL systems, and in my view you cannot achieve with any free standing DSP speaker what can be achieved with a proper ATC install like this. I have never said it was an end all solution, but to call them obsolete because they do something else, is just absurd.

 

[Ilkless]

Just to be clear you are saying that speakers can be mounted in free space, in the middle of the room say and because the wall behind them ( the ‘front’ wall) is extremely solid then the reflected bass from that very solid wall will have no effect?
Keith

How did the Alexander Pope poem go? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Audio engineers that haven't read a single word of Sound Reproduction or other seminal texts relying on intuition, rules of thumb, and folk "theory" or "wisdom" that seem vaguely empirical - more convinced of the validity of their experiences and opinions than even the pure subjective audiophile just because of the veneer of rationality. The ATC choice makes sense. It's more comforting to believe one's speakers are simultaneously state-of-the-art and will always stay there, that audio reproduction has plateaued precisely with ATC-level pricing and engineering than to recognise their limitations.

 

[Geert]

They are ALL systems, and in my view you cannot achieve with any free standing DSP speaker what can be achieved with a proper ATC install like this.

You mean you can't achieve it as with any decent soffit mount install, not specifically ATC? Ever heard something like Genelec 1234A's flush-mounted?

 

[czt]

ATC is just an urban legend and unfortunately hyped till the stratosphere, especially in pro circles, but at the end just ridiculously priced and colored (but must acknowledge, massive and robust) speakers from Britain. Yes, ATC make subs too, just engineers and other esoteric incompetents who are unable to integrate them properly speaking utter BS about subs. I would never think this "much" of ATC fanboys possible here ("...science...").

 

[DSJR]

Just think, some very fine recordings of ancient times were mixed and 'mastered' using Tannoys!!!!! Also, Altecs were used (Abbey Road?).

I was told that an engineer needs to get to *know* their monitors, so they can 'hear right through' them to the music and not mix to the speakers themselves, if that makes any sense.

I look forward to the chance one day of hearing bigger Genelecs and/or Neumanns. May be difficult though as I'm not sure there's a demo facility as such for speakers such as these.

ATC were one of the first to allow domestic consumers to audition their monitors which were well known in the pro world. The original B&W 801's straddled the two markets but I don't know when this model began to be 'placed' in studios for promotion (Decca then in London had them from the early 80's? I believe, stand mounted and driven by large HH MOS-FET power amps. Even PMC tend to keep their two ranges separate now the domestic side is so taken with their slimline models.

 

[DSJR]

ATC is just an urban legend and unfortunately hyped till the stratosphere, especially in pro circles, but at the end just ridiculously priced and colored (but must acknowledge, massive and robust) speakers from Britain. Yes, ATC make subs too, just engineers and other esoteric incompetents who are unable to integrate them properly speaking utter BS about subs.

Which ones have you heard and what alternatives have you directly compared them to?

At least Purite's Keith has done extensive comparisons so has a genuinely valid opinion (my local salon only has inferior but greatly more expensive confections there in my opinion - and no, Dynaudio Confidence 60's aren't as good to me no matter how well made the rather delicate of durable drivers are!).

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Just to be clear you are saying that speakers can be mounted in free space, in the middle of the room say and because the wall behind them ( the ‘front’ wall) is extremely solid then the reflected bass from that very solid wall will have no effect?
Keith

No, the wall surrounding the speakers. Not the one behind them.

 

[czt]

At least Purite's Keith has done extensive comparisons so has a genuinely valid opinion (my local salon only has inferior but greatly more expensive confections there in my opinion - and no, Dynaudio Confidence 60's aren't as good to me no matter how well made the rather delicate of durable drivers are!).

Because you are biased to ATC? We don't blame you, it's patriotic. (And please forgive me for being an ATC, PMC, Quested, etc. anti-fan.)

 

[Torbachkristensen]

You mean you can't achieve it as with any decent soffit mount install, not specifically ATC? Ever heard something like Genelec 1234A's flush-mounted?

Yes I have actually. Sounded great Tweeter is not my cup of tea though.

 

[DSJR]

Because you are biased to ATC? We don't blame you, it's patriotic.

Umm - you haven't answered my question about what ATC's you've heard and which models in direct comparison to better alternatives. Easy to be an armchair keyboard warrior, but here, we need clarity otherwise it's just waffle.

Patriotic be damned I use US made amps, far eastern digital sources and the Harbeths were too good to miss when I came by them so for now they've stayed (I make no claims for them in the realm of the speakers we're discussing). Both ATC and Harbeth now chase lower 'High End' buyers below the 'Wilson or Magico' level and are doing well despite the prices in certain affluent markets.

If you've read my earlier posts, I've explained how I got to know the brand and its founders. I appreciated what they were doing and the information they gave me which was and still is all common sense and easily shown away from the factory and I never got in serious discussions with Billy as regards other makers doing good things as he became rather defensive (Focal did a serious 6" driver which made the SCM 10 driver a but old-hat I remember, this before the 7 and 11 came along - earliest late 90's versions of the 7's were awful I remember!). I'm certain the likes of Neumann and Ganelec pro models would do similar or better great things in measurement and in the room, but I don't know the engineering staff and sadly have not heard them. The Kii's are the only modern speaker in this 'class' that I've been able to hear properly and I've said I very much liked what I heard.

I do keep an open mind, but the wolves here are as bad as the tribal supporters, so i try to say it as I find at this moment in time

 

[Purité Audio]

No, the wall surrounding the speakers. Not the one behind them.

The glass, which surrounds each speaker and which are hanging in free space?

Keith

 

[czt]

Sadly I visited the factory only on yt. I would audit them at a dealer with pleasure, but as I said earlier, the interest lacking in me, to travel there.

 

[Inner Space]

Audio engineers that haven't read a single word of Sound Reproduction or other seminal texts relying on intuition, rules of thumb, and folk "theory" or "wisdom" that seem vaguely empirical - more convinced of the validity of their experiences and opinions than even the pure subjective audiophile just because of the veneer of rationality. The ATC choice makes sense. It's more comforting to believe one's speakers are simultaneously state-of-the-art and will always stay there, that audio reproduction has plateaued precisely with ATC-level pricing and engineering than to recognise their limitations.

Yes, audio engineers are awful, aren't they? Ignorant, backward folk ... and yet ... you're heavily into a hobby whose entire f-ing basis is the accurate reproduction of their work. Weird!

 

[Chrise36]

Torb less fan-boy more measurements, ask ATc to send a pair for measurement.
Keith

The Kii come nowhere near any ATC with the dome especially when driven hard. The reviews have revealed problems i heard when i auditioned them and i am surprised an experienced listener suggest they sound better.

 

[goat76]

Yes, audio engineers are awful, aren't they? Ignorant, backward folk ... and yet ... you're heavily into a hobby whose entire f-ing basis is the accurate reproduction of their work. Weird!

I'm not even sure he got any speakers at home, he is so quiet when someone asks about that. Am I right @Ilkless, you just like the theory and the latest developments in sound reproduction?

 

[Chrise36]

When you say "problematic" your basis for it is in sighted listening with its well-documented biases - not least of all to vindicate your choices and to hold up this cult of personality that conveniently holds the state of the art in the same place as it was 20, make it 25, years ago rather than admit that time has left it behind.

When we say "problematic" our basis is peer-reviewed research and science about acoustics, human auditory perception and ear physiology. These exist regardless of your anti-intellectualism.

Siding with anecdotal sighted listening, even shown peer-reviewed research about why you can't, and even when it contradicts decades of work by thousands of hearing researchers, engineers and doctors is the height of arrogance. It's to arrogate that your ears function on a fundamentally different basis from what has been shown for the human species.

And again, the discussion is only so critical because ATC, like Harbeth and Chord, and unlike say Living Voice or Audio Note, peddle a superficially engineering-driven and evidence-based approach while stubbornly avoiding all the advances it does not want to, or is incapable of implementing. The intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of these quasi-scientific brands is worse than those who are unabashedly purely subjective.

So your claims are based on double blind tests among the leading brands really? You are trashing a product judging from one parameter ignoring other important parameters or the downsides that come with current "SOTA" solutions.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

The glass, which surrounds each speaker and which are hanging in free space?

Keith

Hi Keith. You are not genuinely interested, let’s leave it.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

How did the Alexander Pope poem go? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

Audio engineers that haven't read a single word of Sound Reproduction or other seminal texts relying on intuition, rules of thumb, and folk "theory" or "wisdom" that seem vaguely empirical - more convinced of the validity of their experiences and opinions than even the pure subjective audiophile just because of the veneer of rationality. The ATC choice makes sense. It's more comforting to believe one's speakers are simultaneously state-of-the-art and will always stay there, that audio reproduction has plateaued precisely with ATC-level pricing and engineering than to recognise their limitations.

Keith does not understand the design concept, and this piece of unreasonable bashing just makes you look as much like a fool as him.

 

[SoundGuy]

Amazing to see the ATC haters at work on this thread trying to tear down the company, it’s philosophy and even it’s integrity. You haters seem totally frustrated that a “left behind design” commands such very high prices and is in such demand there is a long wait list for most models. I guess you are angry because few if anyone of those who matter in the industry subscribe to your view. I suspect ATC will not listen to your advice. Their user list is all they need to be be confident that they still deliver for their target market. DSP and cool cabinet design is not the answer to remedy OEM transducer deficiencies. You don’t get it. You probably never will. You probably can’t even hear the difference ATC makes. It’s only your loss…your rants won’t achieve anything. Those with experience will go on doing what they do…buying one of the most trusted and track proven studio brands.