Sorry, I can’t do that right now as I don't have any saved pictures on my phone of my current equalized curve from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. But I can tell you I do have bass extension down to 20 Hz thanks to two subwoofers in the system.
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ATC speakers / Monitors
- Thread starter Pearljam5000
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Sorry, I can’t do that right now as I don't have any saved pictures on my phone of my current equalized curve from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. But I can tell you I do have bass extension down to 20 Hz thanks to two subwoofers in the system.
ernestcarl
Major Contributor
There are lots of nice photos posted in their website, but only one or two IR envelope measurement graphs.
Here's one from 2012:
On the job 2012 - Northward Acoustics
on the job in 2012 Images of our daily lives designing and building studios around the world. 202320222021202020192018201720162015201420132012201120102009
northwardacoustics.com
I presume their in-room measurements to be quite good if the speaker-room integration were maximally optimized regardless of speaker brand.
What I would like to see are the actual mdat files posted with detailed context about the room and measurement parameters/procedures.
Although not enough, there's already a lot that can be gleaned from the full IR data of a single measurement sweep, more so if detailed near and far off-axis measurements and spatial performance information were also included.
*Most esp. measurements at the front ~vs~ back/rear listening positions of the room.
I use SCM100 in domestic environment. I have no issues with mid-range. The only issue I had to deal with was bass - too much of it (thanks to room mode at 40Hz).
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What speaker does not benefit from a sub?
Liya
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Genelec 8381A
OP
Pearljam5000
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My dream speakers
Pretty much only full range flush mounts or similar.
There are lots of nice photos posted in their website, but only one or two IR envelope measurement graphs.
Here's one from 2012:
View attachment 335178
On the job 2012 - Northward Acoustics
on the job in 2012 Images of our daily lives designing and building studios around the world. 202320222021202020192018201720162015201420132012201120102009
I presume their in-room measurements to be quite good if the speaker-room integration were maximally optimized regardless of speaker brand.
What I would like to see are the actual mdat files posted with detailed context about the room and measurement parameters/procedures.
Although not enough, there's already a lot that can be gleaned from the full IR data of a single measurement sweep, more so if detailed near and far off-axis measurements and spatial performance information were also included.
*Most esp. measurements at the front ~vs~ back/rear listening positions of the room.
I think that looks good, all the early reflections are taken care of, and everything falls off evenly. The room's acoustics seem to be nicely treated and well-controlled.
I think I have a fairly good listening room myself, even if it's just a regular living room and far from an acoustically treated Northward studio room. The Filtered Impulse response of my room shows that I have some problems with early reflections, but nothing really bad and not far from being 20 dB under the signal level which I think is fairly good for a regular living room.
There are lots of nice photos posted in their website, but only one or two IR envelope measurement graphs.
Here's one from 2012:
View attachment 335178
On the job 2012 - Northward Acoustics
on the job in 2012 Images of our daily lives designing and building studios around the world. 202320222021202020192018201720162015201420132012201120102009
I presume their in-room measurements to be quite good if the speaker-room integration were maximally optimized regardless of speaker brand.
What I would like to see are the actual mdat files posted with detailed context about the room and measurement parameters/procedures.
Although not enough, there's already a lot that can be gleaned from the full IR data of a single measurement sweep, more so if detailed near and far off-axis measurements and spatial performance information were also included.
*Most esp. measurements at the front ~vs~ back/rear listening positions of the room.
-25dB is impressive but ludicrous to think it is intrinsic to the ATC design. The speakers are merely along for the ride with a room like this
ernestcarl
Major Contributor
Beyond more basic specs like max SPL and low end extension plus personal preference, I would tend to agree...
Fundamentally, it largely would not matter if one were to use an ATC, Genelec, or Fulcrum Acoustic speaker for Northward Acoustics with their "Front-To-Back [FTB] Control Room and Mastering Suite standard".
I can understand that we don't really have the luxury of being a client of theirs to have free direct access to the measurements. Fine. But, ATC should have the means and capability (I presume) to provide more detailed measurement specs to support their own speaker designs.
Fulcrum Acoustic RM22 vs RM25:
*Both have nearly the same 'maximum equalized sensitivity' (95 & 96 dB respectively) and peak SPL of 126 dB (for a single studio monitor). Herein, the primary distinction is that the RM25 model with its dual 15" woofers have a more extended LF range.
Reference Monitors Products | Fulcrum Acoustic
RM Series loudspeakers are 3-way coaxial reference monitors that provide the accuracy, pristine imaging, and precise transient response required of a studio monitor but with the directional control, power handling, and output capability required in larger spaces. RMS Subwoofers are a sonic...
www.fulcrum-acoustic.com
Whitepapers | Fulcrum Acoustic
WhitepapersImproved Loudspeaker Array ModelingMeasurements of directional response are often used to predict interactions in arrays. Implicit in this approach is a simplistic source model with demonstrable limitations. The source models can be greatly improved by incorporating the known physical...
www.fulcrum-acoustic.com
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WillBrink
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My current set up and add to the ATC discussion, using 2xFM8's Rythmiks. Put high density foam between them ("Sound Addicted - Studio Monitor Isolation Pads") and I assume that's adequate vs say IsoAcoustics products which can add costs quickly. Thoughts/opinions there?
I found dual mono setting on base management was preferable to stereo subs to my ears, so leaving the setting as dual mono. Having ARC Genesis and base management via the Anthem integrated makes it much easier to set up/blend for me. As one can see, limited in space and must follow WAF on that one, so the FM8's checked off all boxes there allowing dual subs in a tight spot. They're almost exactly the dimensions of the stands I was using, and had one sub in the corner, now I'm finally doing dual subs. I have never tweaked the ARC settings to personal preferences myself, tend to run it and use the recommended EQ they advise. See attached ARC pre and post settings. Quite the mid range dip and peaks there.
So far, sticking to 80HZ x over but will experiment at some point. Right now, wanted to get used to the much enhanced base output I'm getting from the dual sub arrangement.
I know it looks very reflective, but just out of the photo are rugs, couch, large fluffy dog beds, etc. Not perfect to be sure, but as a shared space, best I'm gonna do.
I found dual mono setting on base management was preferable to stereo subs to my ears, so leaving the setting as dual mono. Having ARC Genesis and base management via the Anthem integrated makes it much easier to set up/blend for me. As one can see, limited in space and must follow WAF on that one, so the FM8's checked off all boxes there allowing dual subs in a tight spot. They're almost exactly the dimensions of the stands I was using, and had one sub in the corner, now I'm finally doing dual subs. I have never tweaked the ARC settings to personal preferences myself, tend to run it and use the recommended EQ they advise. See attached ARC pre and post settings. Quite the mid range dip and peaks there.
So far, sticking to 80HZ x over but will experiment at some point. Right now, wanted to get used to the much enhanced base output I'm getting from the dual sub arrangement.
I know it looks very reflective, but just out of the photo are rugs, couch, large fluffy dog beds, etc. Not perfect to be sure, but as a shared space, best I'm gonna do.
Attachments
I see that you have very limited space, so you can probably not raise your speakers higher without blocking either the view of your TV or the opening to the other room. My suggestion is that you tilt your speakers so that the acoustic center points to your ear level at the listening position, on your speakers the acoustic center is right in the middle between the mid/bass driver and the tweeter.
Maybe it's just the picture that makes it look like the speakers are placed too low.
Beautiful speakers!
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WillBrink
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I see that you have very limited space, so you can probably not raise your speakers higher without blocking either the view of your TV or the opening to the other room. My suggestion is that you tilt your speakers so that the acoustic center points to your ear level at the listening position, on your speakers the acoustic center is right in the middle of the mid/bass driver and the tweeter.
Maybe it's just the picture that makes it look like the speakers are placed too low.
Beautiful speakers!
The speakers are 40" which is the same as they were on the stands I had, and tweeter is dead on the same height as my ears sitting on the couch (not shown in pic) so seems ok to me. That was one reason I chose those Fm8 subs, per OP.
Torbachkristensen
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It is about integration, serviceability, consistency and driver quality which is where they excel, with full control and in house production and lineup that doesn't change every few years. And in Northwards case of course also about consistent results from room to room, which is undoubtedly easier when using the same speakers everytime. The ATC lineup can be ordered specifically for soffit mounting with external amp, straight edges, and their LF response is made with soffit mounting in mind, whichis what you want when building this kind of system. That is also why a freestanding pair often sounds thin and lacking LF, the install version doesn't have any EQ settings on the amp, whereas the freestanding/integrated amp have a +6db gain pot for the LF. They are designed with the LF gain from soffit mounting in mind, and behaviour is predictable and consistent. All of these "SOTA" speakers are not made for this kind of system, they are made to intereact as little as possible with the common listening room. They can not be integrated in this manner, as that is not what they where made for. It doesn't matter if it's a better speaker on a Klippel, because in this scenario they are not "better", or even usable.
There are acoustic problems completely eliminated with a good soffit mount system, and then the advantages of Kii or C8 dissappear. Few speakers are actually even good candidates. There are not a lot of choices out there - if you have heard a pair of the big Genelecs made for Soffit mounting, I think you will know why they are generally not used anymore. They are crude and unpleasant to the ear. The only other real alternative is Quested, as PMC has a weird voicing with excessive HF. Quested is a much smaller and more niche company, using off the shelve Volt drivers, and LAB amps.
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Cannot agree to this part, TBH I didn't auditioned one in a built room, but for monitoring purpose, "Crude" in my dictionary means raw, which is giving you what is fed to them and should be preferred, in monitoring/mixing one would like to have something as raw as possible, much like you wanted to do photo tuning in a calibrated and accurate monitor, not some vivid profile applied. Soffit mounting did tackle bass response, but it didn't do directivity error for that.
I do agree that with "good enough for purpose" and making the room to room end product consistent for customer is a big plus for a room builder, likely what room builders like Northwards prefers. When you can get your customer happy with tool A, better not chase for the (potential) better tools and then adapt all your working process around it.
Same goes true for photography, if Canon did great for what you did, don't just chase for the newer system where you need to adapt to all the focus mode, colour profile, lens operation etc so you don't risk the final product being worsen than your previous as you need to adapt to the new tool.
Torbachkristensen
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I am not intended to twist your word, but just in my understanding crude = raw= what’s in what’s out. And descriptive arguments isn’t really useful in accuracy intended debate.
Being working as a system I believe everything can be integrated into a system, especially if a vendor have all the parts needed to make the whole system and not say, mixing brand A mains with brand B subs.
As long as properly integrated system and pen isn’t in a completely dead room, I can’t see why with logic a part with more directivity error can be better than one with less of directivity error. Sure if measured it can be genelec or other brands have higher distortion, or worse decay time, but without it as a proof a claim is just an opinion, be it personal opinion or professional opinion. And I don’t believe that ATC is simply the better among all other brands, there are also big studios using genelec and other brands, so at least professionals do prefer them from ATC in those cases
Just looked at the new C4 sub Mk2.
The width does not match any of the classic speakers (50, 100 or 150).
Yes, it may not be a good idea locate the sub directly under the R/L speakers, but still, if it was matching in width either the 50s or 100s, they would sell a few more (pairs of) subs than otherwise, I would think.
atc.audio
The width does not match any of the classic speakers (50, 100 or 150).
Yes, it may not be a good idea locate the sub directly under the R/L speakers, but still, if it was matching in width either the 50s or 100s, they would sell a few more (pairs of) subs than otherwise, I would think.
ATC LAUNCHES C4 SUB MK 2 ACTIVE SUBWOOFER SYSTEM | ATC Loudspeakers
New proprietary 12-inch driver, optimised motor and a 300W Class AB amplifier deliver exceptional levels of performance for audiophile music and film devotees.
atc.audio
They would sell even more subs if their prices were reasonable and they would offer a DSP bass management solution for their systems...Just looked at the new C4 sub Mk2.
The width does not match any of the classic speakers (50, 100 or 150).
Yes, it may not be a good idea locate the sub directly under the R/L speakers, but still, if it was matching in width either the 50s or 100s, they would sell a few more (pairs of) subs than otherwise, I would think.
ATC LAUNCHES C4 SUB MK 2 ACTIVE SUBWOOFER SYSTEM | ATC Loudspeakers
New proprietary 12-inch driver, optimised motor and a 300W Class AB amplifier deliver exceptional levels of performance for audiophile music and film devotees.
Sorry, but you often do this in discussions and have done the same to me which is highly frustrating. You find a sentence, twist it to your liking, and then spin it full circle. Maybe not intentional but read your reply from a third-person view of what you wrote and you will maybe notice it.
It is obvious that @Torbachkristensen, in this case, is using the word "crude" to describe why a speaker is not very good for the job, you can't simply stand working all day long for 10 hours a day using a tool that sounds unpleasant to the ear.
I'm sure plenty of speakers from your favorite brand (Genelec) don't sound unpleasant to the ear, but maybe just not their soffit mounting speakers according to some people.
