ATC speakers / Monitors

[Purité Audio]

Could you post a photograph of your room?
Thanks,
Keith

 

[holdingpants01]

If you knew how to read a measurement or how mic placement affects something like that, you wouldn’t care so much about this “big HF drop”. It could litterally be the opposite picture within a few inches up or down - which I account for in the original post. But you choose to ignore it and draw the most misconceived “trendline” i have ever seen.

So much “science” on this thread, and so little knowledge.

Sure, I never made any measurement, don't know how to read them and it's not consistent with many ATC measurements + experiences that I had myself and it wasn't you who said "HF lifted slightly in DSP after these measurements", it was me and I was wrong, sorry

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Sure, I never made any measurement, don't know how to read them and it's not consistent with many ATC measurements + experiences that I had myself and it wasn't you who said "HF lifted slightly in DSP after these measurements", it was me and I was wrong, sorry

Slightly is nothing like what this measurement indicates. As stated in original post.

If you want to be serious, don’t draw a ridiculously sloping trendline on top of measurements, clearly made to emphasize a point, that doesn’t hold up. It is just too obvious.

 

[holdingpants01]

Slightly is nothing like what this measurement indicates. As stated in original post.

If you want to be serious, don’t draw a ridiculously sloping trendline on top of measurements, clearly made to emphasize a point, that doesn’t hold up. It is just too obvious.

"fixed" it for you

"

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Could you post a photograph of your room?
Thanks,
Keith

These measurements are from when I was tuning the crossover. Testing some different approaches. There are 2 x 18” subs in the system as well. ATC go comfortably to 25-30hz, below that subs need to take over.

The orange line is the same measurement as the waterfall plot, the blue line is where I ended up as far as I recall.

Here you can see as well how the smallest movement in vertical alignment of the microphone can make the measured HF change quite substantially, but makes little difference in the rest of the spectrum. My guess is the mic has been below the mid dome on both of these, and should have been placed some inches higher to be on reference axis, if HF response was a concern. They were not when I made these measurements, but 10k and up has been lifted slightly with a shelving in the Merging Anubis, by ear.

 

[Torbachkristensen]

fixed it for you

View attachment 334932

Oh dear… We’ll let your posts speak for themselves.

 

[Purité Audio]

Thanks T it is a very even response imho, I thought there seemed a lot of bass when specs state -6dB at 30Hz the two 18” subs would explain it.
Soffit mounting has many advantages doesn’t it,
Keith

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Thanks T it is a very even response imho, I thought there seemed a lot of bass when specs state -6dB at 30Hz the two 18” subs would explain it.
Soffit mounting has many advantages doesn’t it,
Keith

It does indeed. But it means you need to dedicate a room to the speakers and nothing else. Something that few can or are willing to do, and hence other less room dependent designs have their merit indeed. But people here tend to focus on spinoramas and klippel measurement, that have nothing to do with real world scenarios. A “predicted in room response” is a weird concept, and looks nothing like a real in room response IME.

But it makes none of the design philosophies true or false, some speakers are designed and benefit from certain implementations, and are not wrong for it, like indicated in this thread time after time. Room and speakers is one system, which few seem to acknowledge. And it is why I stopped participating in this thread months ago - all designs are made with compromises, and some will work in scenarios where others are a bad choice and vice versa. But nothing, IMO, really beats a good soffit mounted speaker.

 

[Purité Audio]

May I ask how is the wall that holds you speakers constructed, my understanding is that there has to be enough mass behind to absorb even the lowest frequencies?
In the transparent Northward designs where the speakers are suspended in glass I suppose the front wall again has to be extremely massy, or the room behind has to be large enough or limp enough not to return bass?
Keith

 

[Torbachkristensen]

May I ask how is the wall that holds you speakers constructed, my understanding is that there has to be enough mass behind to absorb even the lowest frequencies?
In the transparent Northward designs where the speakers are suspended in glass I suppose the front wall again has to be extremely massy, or the room behind has to be large enough or limp enough not to return bass?
Keith

Seven layer fiber plaster construction. So yes, in practice resonance free, which is the goal.

Speakers are hanging in 2 layer foamed MDF boxes, from steel H Beam construction in the ceiling suspended in industrial springs, with a point of resonance at 3hz. So effectively completely decoupled from the room.

Modular (tunable) bass traps hanging from ceiling in the opposite end of the room.

 

[withoutsuit]

This is how ATC SCM200 measure in this room. I like their headroom but that's it, the rest is as far for neutral as it gets, I started to bring my 8330 there just to know what I'm really recording. I can understand someone liking it, the dip in the midrange and the HF curve in particular makes everything sound like a 8k pultec bump and more like a "record", but this is not how a monitor speaker should sound and a good example how pro studios shouldn't be automatically taken as a reference


View attachment 334874View attachment 334875

Are you serious? How can someone judge over a speaker based on inroom-measurements, especially above bass frequencies

 

[Torbachkristensen]

Are you serious? How can someone judge over a speaker based on inroom-measurements, especially above bass frequencies

Yeah, this is a joke, and only a testament to terrible room implementation.

 

[RobL]

Are you serious? How can someone judge over a speaker based on inroom-measurements, especially above bass frequencies

Room effects apply mostly below schroeder.

 

[Avp1]

both sound the same, the dip is probably because of the reflection from the desk and HF drop is about the same as any ATC I measured or heard, maybe a bit more as the tweeter is rather hight. Month ago I was helping calibrate SCM45 in different room and it was around -5dB at 20k on axis

Slope from 10 to 20kHz is real in ATC. But in most cases this is not the issue at all. This makes sound more bearable for long listening. Dip in mid-range can be a sign that listener is too low comparing to mid-range driver level. ATC recommends 0 to -5 degrees from midrange. If speakers are higher - they need to be angled to listener to compensate.

 

[withoutsuit]

Room effects apply mostly below schroeder.

... oh wow. you refer to modal behaviour, but that's not the only in room issue. there are reflections, cancellations/sbir, and not only direct waves. hopefully frequency windowing was turned on at this measurement, but i doubt it. even then, thats not a measurement to judge about the speaker but the room.

 

[RobL]

... oh wow. you refer to modal behaviour, but that's not the only in room issue. there are reflections, cancellations/sbir, and not only direct waves. hopefully frequency windowing was turned on at this measurement, but i doubt it. even then, thats not a measurement to judge about the speaker but the room.

Ok, I’ll just reference ATC’s anechoic measurements…oh wait

 

[Pearljam5000]

So, I have been lucky enough to hear ATCs in a Northward room today - when they're integrated correctly, ATCs are truly world class.

Do you feel that same size of monitor from Genelec/Neumann in the same level of room would sound worst than the ATCs you heard today?

 

[boxerfan88]

"fixed" it for you

View attachment 334932
"

Thanks for posting the revised chart for the other poster.

It is an interesting trendline ... showing either ATC has poor HF response, or tweeter is ill, or measurement was off-axis, or something else. Hmm...

 

[dfuller]

Do you feel that same size of monitor from Genelec/Neumann in the same level of room would sound worst than the ATCs you heard today?

Apparently Thomas stopped using Genelecs because they had issues (this was back in the 103__ days, though). Not sure if there are any rooms he's done with non-ATCs at the moment...

Anyway, I have to imagine he's skilled enough to build around them if necessary.

 

[goat76]

I'd be curious too but I can say this much, the ATCs I've used do a thing in the mids that the Dutches don't. They're not mid forward, not really - they're just insanely detailed. The Neumanns do something largely similar, I think it has something to do with an exceptionally low distortion mid driver.

I find the ATCs sound exceptionally good in the midrange, better than most other speakers I've heard. Good to hear the Neumann speakers with the mid-dome driver have similar qualities. Our hearing is said to be the most sensitive in that frequency range.