ATC speakers / Monitors

[WillBrink]

The value you perceive from subjective views is an emotional value, not a scientific value.
The goal of science is the description of the real world.
The goal of emotion is to feel good, especially to feel self-satisfied.
It's helpful not to mix them up.


Jim

Where was a scientific value claimed? It was not. I know the difference between subjective value and those supported by objective data/measurements. On speakers especially, I'm interested in knowing how they measure objectively, and how they sound subjectively as the two are how I tend to go about making choices.

 

[WillBrink]

View attachment 260571For me ATC is like Leica.
There are technically better cameras and lenses out there, but many are attracted by the fame, looks, mechanics and surely this system is capable of producing great images.
Neumann or Genelec look like pig in the living room. I have Genelec and like the sound but can't stand the look.
Thing is that in real life ATC sounds good and looks good too.

All things being equal, I will take the speakers that also pleasing to the aesthetics and room. The ATC's have a very high SO factor. The Genelec's not so much. If you're a single person, and you don't care/think the Genelec's look ok, then win win.

On the other side, I think Sonus Faber probably makes the prettiest speakers, their sound never did anything for me, so I would not own those either. Sound is #1 priority, looks second, and finding something that achieves both is a win, and ATC does that for me.

 

[WillBrink]

Within the next few weeks I will be taking some active 40’s in part-ex , I could run some un-sophisticated measurements if any one here is interested?
Perhaps set them up next to the customers 8Cs and compare plots?
Keith

I can't imagine why we would not want to see objective measurements.

 

[YSC]

Set your expectations low!
No fancy Klippel here oh no.
Keith

Great, really long for that! Some untempered and no dsp for both speakers with distortion and maybe slight off axis plot will be great

 

[YSC]

All things being equal, I will take the speakers that also pleasing to the aesthetics and room. The ATC's have a very high SO factor. The Genelec's not so much. If you're a single person, and you don't care/think the Genelec's look ok, then win win.

On the other side, I think Sonus Faber probably makes the prettiest speakers, their sound never did anything for me, so I would not own those either. Sound is #1 priority, looks second, and finding something that achieves both is a win, and ATC does that for me.

I think that’s also true for most ppl, but the prerequisites is “everything being equal”, which sadly at least in the calibration ease and dispersion most if not all ATC is kind of lagging behind. And I personally, if money no object would go for D&D, KEF blade meta for living room and for geek room the Genelecs for the same reason

 

[witwald]

Where was a scientific value claimed?

The claim was automatically built into the "review" provided by the "influencer". It's an unavoidable byproduct of the approach.

I know the difference between subjective value and those supported by objective data/measurements.

Many others could be in the very same boat. However, why support nebulous subjective prose that could/should very easily be replaced by a more objective approach?

On speakers especially, I'm interested in knowing how they measure objectively, and how they sound subjectively as the two are how I tend to go about making choices.

And you might ostensibly be basing choices on the following selection of "subjective" comments from an "influencer"? Is that really all that worthwhile?

During the 12 mins 58 secs of the presentation, there's quite a bit of emotive and imprecise language being used, with a few well-polished chestnuts thrown in for good measure...

"they are speaker manufacturer royalty"
"[they have] celebrity clients"
"all [their] drivers are extremely well regarded"
"they're not cheap but you seem to get a lot for your money"
"everything is so substantial"
"the darn thing weighs as much as many quality two-way bookshelves on its own"
"has a magnet structure that would put most woofers to shame"
"this thing is next level in so many regards to anything that's passed my door"
"a mighty fine speaker for the money"
"they're a different kettle of fish"
"they deliver bass weight that is thumping"
"they deliver bass lines that make stand mounts and compact floor standers sound like they're boys playing a man's game"
"deliver such great dynamic impact"
"there's such saturation to instruments and vocals"
"great instrument separation makes it very easy to follow individuals within a mix"
"the tweeter is not up to the same job as the other two drivers"
"it falls into the good rather than the great category"
"robs the speaker of that last little bit of ethereal quality on top"
"would have you tingling with excitement"
"consider the junior sibling to be the epitome of neutrality"
"the tonal balance shifts to the warm side"
"the bigger speaker is also darker in presentation"
"has more to offer when it comes to low- and mid-frequency reproduction"
"prefer more extension on top"
"image superbly for a floor-standing speaker"
"a locked-down central image"
"a sweet spot that is amazing"
"have great soundstage depth"
"only give away a little bit in terms of soundstage width"
"had to wrestle quite a bit"
"the midrange starts to sound thick"
"the sonic treats on offer"
"a relatively large moving mass which makes them not great for low-level listening"
"demanding of amplification"
"need a price-appropriate front end to shine"
"superbly transparent"
"a perfect pairing"
"revealed a gloriously rich and textured midrange"
"will be coveted for"
"lack the bass control when things got really motoring"
"everything was a little scaled down in terms of soundstage, dynamics, and resolution"
"tease you about it for now"
"an immensely capable speaker"
"with a military-like robustness not only in their build but in their dynamic and peak level sonic capability"
"these are not speakers that are all about fireworks without finesse"
"the bass definition, midrange openness, and richness is what many audiophiles long for"
"they need a bit of space around them to let them breathe"
"fed with a top-quality source to make them shine"
"see if it can match the levels of musical expression achieved by the drivers below"
"offer great value for money within the portfolio"
"they get a highly recommended"

 

[goat76]

Even if most of those things are poetry type of descriptions, they do make more sense when they are not taken out of context.

 

[YSC]

The claim was automatically built into the "review" provided by the "influencer". It's an unavoidable byproduct of the approach.

Many others could be in the very same boat. However, why support nebulous subjective prose that could/should very easily be replaced by a more objective approach?

And you might ostensibly be basing choices on the following selection of "subjective" comments from an "influencer"? Is that really all that worthwhile?

During the 12 mins 58 secs of the presentation, there's quite a bit of emotive and imprecise language being used, with a few well-polished chestnuts thrown in for good measure...

"they are speaker manufacturer royalty"
"[they have] celebrity clients"
"all [their] drivers are extremely well regarded"
"they're not cheap but you seem to get a lot for your money"
"everything is so substantial"
"the darn thing weighs as much as many quality two-way bookshelves on its own"
"has a magnet structure that would put most woofers to shame"
"this thing is next level in so many regards to anything that's passed my door"
"a mighty fine speaker for the money"
"they're a different kettle of fish"
"they deliver bass weight that is thumping"
"they deliver bass lines that make stand mounts and compact floor standers sound like they're boys playing a man's game"
"deliver such great dynamic impact"
"there's such saturation to instruments and vocals"
"great instrument separation makes it very easy to follow individuals within a mix"
"the tweeter is not up to the same job as the other two drivers"
"it falls into the good rather than the great category"
"robs the speaker of that last little bit of ethereal quality on top"
"would have you tingling with excitement"
"consider the junior sibling to be the epitome of neutrality"
"the tonal balance shifts to the warm side"
"the bigger speaker is also darker in presentation"
"has more to offer when it comes to low- and mid-frequency reproduction"
"prefer more extension on top"
"image superbly for a floor-standing speaker"
"a locked-down central image"
"a sweet spot that is amazing"
"have great soundstage depth"
"only give away a little bit in terms of soundstage width"
"had to wrestle quite a bit"
"the midrange starts to sound thick"
"the sonic treats on offer"
"a relatively large moving mass which makes them not great for low-level listening"
"demanding of amplification"
"need a price-appropriate front end to shine"
"superbly transparent"
"a perfect pairing"
"revealed a gloriously rich and textured midrange"
"will be coveted for"
"lack the bass control when things got really motoring"
"everything was a little scaled down in terms of soundstage, dynamics, and resolution"
"tease you about it for now"
"an immensely capable speaker"
"with a military-like robustness not only in their build but in their dynamic and peak level sonic capability"
"these are not speakers that are all about fireworks without finesse"
"the bass definition, midrange openness, and richness is what many audiophiles long for"
"they need a bit of space around them to let them breathe"
"fed with a top-quality source to make them shine"
"see if it can match the levels of musical expression achieved by the drivers below"
"offer great value for money within the portfolio"
"they get a highly recommended"

yea, and most of the phrase or similar happens in every speaker review... actually these kind of trend happens in all subjective reviews, cars, tyres, cameras, lenses, food.... the list goes on. and only some standardized test can differenciate one from another.

 

[witwald]

Even if most of those things are poetry type of descriptions, they do make more sense when they are not taken out of context.

It's unclear how the direct quotations of phrases used in the review in relation to the product being talked about have somehow been taken out of context; I'm flabbergasted. If anything, those phrases could easily have formed part of just about any subjective, infotainment "review" by another "influencer".

 

[TheBatsEar]

It's unclear how the direct quotations of phrases used in the review in relation to the product being talked about have somehow been taken out of context; I'm flabbergasted. If anything, those phrases could easily have formed part of just about any subjective, infotainment "review" by another "influencer".

I wrote this in a comment:
"100% of this was subjective, how about you add some substance and maybe look into frequency range, distortion at different volumes and directivity in the future? You did ask ATC for data, didn't you?"
His answer:
"Thank you. This is purely a subjective review of me sharing my experience with a product. I try to be as thorough as I can but don’t get into measurements. They can be valuable though"

His audience knows. He knows. He knows that his audience knows. Yet he doesn't talk about facts and data. It's a mystery.

Anyway, the wait for an acceptable second hand price for a pair of SCM40 continues ...

 

[Chrise36]

There is a shop offer new pair cherry at 4000 and installments

 

[goat76]

Anyway, the wait for an acceptable second hand price for a pair of SCM40 continues ...

I have never seen the SCM40 on the used market in my country so I gave up waiting for that. Instead, I emailed a store asking them if they could sell their demo-ex to me. They gave me the price of about 3500€ and I said yeah, box them up and send them to me!

 

[TheBatsEar]

There is a shop offer new pair cherry at 4000 and installments

That is more than i'm willing to pay. Bought the SCM19v2 for 1500€, will try for 3500€ max for the SCM40v2.
Also, they need to be somewhat in my area, northeast france, belgium, netherlands, west germany.

They will materialize eventually, it's just a matter of years

 

[TheBatsEar]

I have never seen the SCM40 on the used market in my country so I gave up waiting for that. Instead, I emailed a store asking them if they could sell their demo-ex to me. They gave me the price of about 3500€ and I said yeah, box them up and send them to me!

Maybe i should try that too.

 

[goat76]

Maybe i should try that too.

It's pretty nice to buy them used from a store, that will most likely give you a guarantee as well.

 

[WillBrink]

My post was clarification, not an attack. There are many, many people who do not register here, but who cruise through the posts searching for topics in which they have interest. Many of them are new to audio, and many do not understand the difference between "subjective" and "scientific" because they've been brainwashed by the subjectivist press and videos.

I just now went back and edited my post so that it reflects the changes I noted above. Is it clearer now?

Jim

Yes it is. As a science based person, who has been published in a few sci/med journals and such, obviously I have an interest and focus on objective measurements, etc. I like this forum because it's not endless discussions on the sound differences between power cords and such. But, there is subjective differences between speakers, and I'm interested hear what subjective differences people experience, and my own reviews as it applies to audio are subjective. I have heard speakers that measured well I didn't like. I'm sure you have too.

 

[YSC]

Yes it is. As a science based person, who has been published in a few sci/med journals and such, obviously I have an interest and focus on objective measurements, etc. I like this forum because it's not endless discussions on the sound differences between power cords and such. But, there is subjective differences between speakers, and I'm interested hear what subjective differences people experience, and my own reviews as it applies to audio are subjective. I have heard speakers that measured well I didn't like. I'm sure you have too.

I think so but personally my experience is that only comes true when the selection is like above the "good" classification category, sometimes the minor technically better one could be shadowed by the port noise, bass extension, dispersion (wide vs narrow) and the in room downslop trend, IME the amount of reflection does have quite an effect to indiivudual for the music to soiund "right" or not, but then when speaker have major objective flaw, I usually would found it something really wrong in short listening demo but not always

 

[TheBatsEar]

there is subjective differences between speakers

There is no such thing as "subjective differences in speakers", only objective differences exist.

Subjective means, it's in the chemical and electrical state of your mind, not the material world.

 

[WillBrink]

There is no such thing as "subjective differences in speakers", only objective differences exist.

Subjective means, it's in the chemical and electrical state of your mind, not the material world.

I didn't say "subjective differences in speakers", I said "subjective differences between speakers" and I suspect you know exactly what I meant by it.

 

[witwald]

I’ve heard good things about the 19s, but according to Ben Lilly at ATC, the 40s (both active and passive) are the speakers that are considered by many to be the absolute sweet spot in their speaker lineup.

The passive SCM40s, with their tri-wiring capability, are a novel design in that respect. It would be interesting to see how they go connected to a 7.x or greater AVR, as it would be possible to drive them with 6 separate channels of amplification (tri-amplification of each individual speaker). That approach would also provide another interesting capability. It would be possible to tweak the relative levels being fed into the low-frequency, mid-frequency, and high-frequency drivers. That could offer an extra bit of sound tuning flexibility for those so inclined. Their claimed flat impedance curve, specified to be a nominal 8 ohms, seems to allow for an easy load for AVRs.

The SCM40s are a sealed design, with a claimed 48Hz –6dB low-frequency cut-off, which is on the highish side. This seems to make them an excellent candidate for use with one or more subwoofers to supplement their existing bass response.