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ATC speakers / Monitors
- Thread starter Pearljam5000
- Start date
This particular conversion would be an interesting case for Dany and us here. Should we ask him to send it for measuring?I said it a lot and i say it again, we need to get more ATCs to @amirm.
I don't think they talk anymore.
I think at one point Danny invited Amir to Texas to have some BBQ and to listen to his stuff. Which sounds like free food to me, so i would have done it, Texans are a friendly bunch and offer huge portions, but i guess Amir gets fed at home, so he might be less desperate than me. A listening session would not have solved the conflict, but it would have opened a path for getting some of GRs stuff into the Klippel.
It just wasn't happening and i think both stopped caring eventually.
Eventually the clownery from this guys got worse, for example when he doubled down on the cable sound thing, and now he is a running ASR joke.
So, i think you can try, but chances are slim to none that it happens. Also, i don't think those ATCs are owned by him but one of his customers asking for a passive cross over network.
I know the "beef" between them Amir has found some of his work good though. Danny would benefit from this one i believe (and our curiosity much more). Could Erin measure these or is he not at the moment?I don't think they talk anymore.
I think at one point Danny invited Amir to Texas to have some BBQ and to listen to his stuff. Which sounds like free food to me, so i would have done it, Texans are a friendly bunch and offer huge portions, but i guess Amir gets fed at home, so he might be less desperate than me. A listening session would not have solved the conflict, but it would have opened a path for getting some of GRs stuff into the Klippel.
It just wasn't happening and i think both stopped caring eventually.
Eventually the clownery from this guys got worse, for example when he doubled down on the cable sound thing, and now he is a running ASR joke.
So, i think you can try, but chances are slim to none that it happens. Also, i don't think those ATCs are owned by him but one of his customers asking for a passive cross over network.
I couldn't say, best to just write him a message and ask.
Can't imagine Danny or the customer wanting these "passive upgraded" SCM16 speakers objectively measured, the potential problems are too obvious for that.
The tweeter might not have a large rear chamber and therefore its resonant frequency could be around 1.5-1.8kHz. Thus, the crossover frequency in Danny's upgraded version is chosen extremely low around 1.7kHz. Distortion and compression effects might be a bit elevated - around the crossover frequency.
As discussed more often, the low crossover frequency amplifies the effects of the tweeter's severe edge diffraction. The crossover frequency of the original SCM19 is 2.8kHz, which has a positive effect on the horizontal radiation (compared to 1.7kHz crossover frequency).
The ER, SP, and PIR are likely to be rather uneven/slightly wavy in the upgraded version, which Danny's measurements already indicate.
If you compare the on-axis measurement (in red) with the presumably 40° hor frequency response measurement in blue, you can imagine how different the lateral reflections from the direct sound will be. The good vertical radiation cannot compensate for this.
In small rooms with little side distance, the speakers could sound unpleasant at high sound pressure levels without heavily absorbing side walls.
Therefore, I can't imagine that Danny would want this speaker to be measured by Erin or Amir.
Yes it is not going to shine on the Olive score but personally i am more interested in seeing the on axis distortion and decay measurements measured and verified with the Klippel and compare them with the 19. There are examples of speakers with worse measurements that were recommended afterall. I would also like your opinion on the impact of an untreated room on the early reflections and why do you consider that parameter more important than other factors. To put it more clearly could you rank the factors you consider more important in a speaker - room system?
Oh gosh, the answer isn't simple if you also want to "prove" it.
Let's assume as a normal case that most drivers today, if used properly, have moderate to low distortion and relatively good decay. And, that listening behavior includes low to moderate sound pressure levels - for someone who likes to listen with very high sound pressure levels in a huge listening room, the following weighting would look different.
Normal listening room, mid or large wall and ceiling distance:
1. direct sound
2. speaker radiation, distortion, decay, compression
Normal listening room, small wall and ceiling distance:
1. direct sound, speaker radiation
2. distortion, decay, compression
In the first, large room, the side walls are 1m further from the speaker. For the red marked first order reflection, this means that it has a 3.5dB higher sound pressure level (at the listening position) in the small room compared to the larger listening room.
Accordingly, this reasoning can be carried out for all other reflections of first order (or even higher order), then it quickly becomes clear how much the room size (and the distance to reflecting surfaces) has an influence on the overall sound. In this regard, I can only refer again and again to a section in a Floyd Toole's lecture, where these connections (direct sound and diffuse/reflective sound) are impressively explained.
In the room sketches with the first-order reflections, the corresponding radiation angles are also drawn in (I have omitted the front reflection), when the speaker on-axis FR is aligned with the listening position.
So for the horizontal first order reflections we have to look more closely at the angular frequency response measurements with 20°, 40° and 80° for loudspeakers (for our example listening rooms).
For this purpose I have selected two speakers on spinorama.org that show a similar radiation pattern as the upgrade version of the SCM16.
Unfortunately, the hor FR are displayed only up to 60 °, so instead of 60 ° should be shown 80 °, but for our purposes the illustration is sufficient.
The yellow bars indicate the particularly problematic frequency range of the speakers. If we could cut out this area, the speakers would have a even radiation.
here are the corresponding CTA-2034-A diagrams, which also show the problems (see e.g. DI and ERDI).
Dynamic compression is, with a "normal" loudspeaker, less than +-0.5dB at dynamic peaks with moderate sound pressure level.
Distortion of any kind is usually well below -30dB above 100-200Hz for a "normal" loudspeaker at moderate sound pressure level.
In total, the sound pressure levels of the reflections at the listening position, in a small listening room, are even above the axial frequency response for a large frequency range, so they have an enormous influence on e.g. the tonality of the loudspeaker.
Hence my personal order of the various influences.
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And?
Since?
Oh wait, 27 and a half hour since he asked.
WillBrink
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I said it a lot and i say it again, we need to get more ATCs to @amirm.
I'm not living with one speaker, having my 19v2 thumped and bumped around in transit, only to have Amir tell me how much the speaker sucks when tested on his whipple/kipple/dipple machine. I kid! Ok, semi kid...
well, then you have your reason to go for your next bext thingI'm not living with one speaker, having my 19v2 thumped and bumped around in transit, only to have Amir tell me how much the speaker sucks when tested on his whipple/kipple/dipple machine. I kid! Ok, semi kid...
probably earn some money selling your 19v2 and going for a better measured one on klippel, or just curse amirm and don't read measurements and keep your 19v2.One good thing I found here is that the recommended ones are usually attainable in a cheaper price than some old/famous brand products, say, 8040 Vs 19V2, topping vs chord etc. so if ended up you found your current fav sucks compared to some ASR fav brand and you tried the fav brand, just move on and resell the old thing with some extra cash back, if you after trial period still thinks the measurement is useless and your old gear is better, return the new ASR approved ____insert your curse here____ and live happily ever after
WillBrink
Active Member
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Well above my technical knowledge to comment on.
Nothing yet
You not but a professional who wants to show the level of his work?I'm not living with one speaker, having my 19v2 thumped and bumped around in transit, only to have Amir tell me how much the speaker sucks when tested on his whipple/kipple/dipple machine. I kid! Ok, semi kid...
Gregg Hermetech
Member
The level of work shown by a professional is based on their successful track record, not the analysis of their speakers.
Cheers, it is.
That is why i didn't send one from Germany.
Here is the thing, the speaker has a different cabinet, a different tweeter and a different crossover network. Also a different woofer (the changes aren't apparent to me however).
The measurements we have seen so far from Stereophile and German/UK magazines are good. But they don't have the resolution of a Klippel or the reputation of Amir.
I suspect the different tweeter means at least better dispersion and less distortion. The cabinet with the non-parallel walls might mean less distortion. Not sure what cross over network and woofer change if at all. Could be the woofer is just another production run.
It could be a brilliant speaker in measurement.
I certainly prefer it to Focal 836V, LS/50, LS/50 Meta, Kef R3 and just recently the DBR62. Obviously this is just opinion and not Klippel facts.
Anyway, i would rather have the Klippel tell me the speaker and my taste in speakers suck, than not know at all.
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