Argon Audio

[phion]

Just buy the device if you like its feature set and find the price reasonable (which it is). They said they are looking to send a unit to Amir in due time, so it's safe to assume this means they are confident enough that it won't perform poorly.

You can then do your own tests if you want, and if you then don't like how it performs, send it back.

No. Gone are the days I’d buy something because the manufacturer said “it’s hifi, just take my word for it.” I hope, thanks to ASR, we are entering an era where informed consumers hold manufacturers to account for publishing appropriate technical specs that can be reproduced by independent measurements. It’s not my job to measure the product, it’s the manufacturer’s responsibility.

The engineer said there were no jitter measurements that could be shared publicly. That doesn’t inspire confidence to me as it sounds like either a) there are no measurements whatsoever, or b) they are pretty bad.

 

[litemotiv]

No. Gone are the days I’d buy something because the manufacturer said “it’s hifi, just take my word for it.”

Well some people seem to be only blindly staring at Sinad or jitter numbers, that is equally silly or perhaps even more so.

Just about all new streamers and DACs are measuring transparently at this point in time, the numbers are nice for bragging rights but not much more.

In the end you will be listening to a device in your room with your ears, measurements will only tell you so much. You will not be able to hear a difference between a 100dB or 120dB Sinad, and you will not be able to hear a difference between 0.005% and 0.00005% jitter. The amount of distortion in your speakers or headphones will be dozens to hundreds times higher.

There is no need to keep pressing a manufacturer for measurements if they have already told you what they can and cannot provide at this point.

 

[phion]

Well some people seem to be only blindly staring at Sinad or jitter numbers, that is equally silly or perhaps even more so.

you seem to be missing what the point of SINAD is. It's a proxy for design and engineering competence. If it's in the OK territory then you look at other things, if it's not you won't bother.

Just about all new streamers and DACs are measuring transparently at this point in time, the numbers are nice for bragging rights but not much more.

Source? There are several crappy products reviewed in this very forum, so yes don't shop blindly.

In the end you will be listening to a device in your room with your ears, measurements will only tell you so much. You will not be able to hear a difference between a 100dB or 120dB Sinad, and you will not be able to hear a difference between 0.005% and 0.00005% jitter. The amount of distortion in your speakers or headphones will be dozens to hundreds times higher.

Where did I say I need it to be 120dB SINAD? If it's 100dB it's good enough for me.

There is no need to keep pressing a manufacturer for measurements if they have already told you what they can and cannot provide at this point.

I'd like to keep pressing so that they get a feel for what customers demand.

 

[Hi-fi DTH]

you seem to be missing what the point of SINAD is. It's a proxy for design and engineering competence. If it's in the OK territory then you look at other things, if it's not you won't bother.


Source? There are several crappy products reviewed in this very forum, so yes don't shop blindly.


Where did I say I need it to be 120dB SINAD? If it's 100dB it's good enough for me.


I'd like to keep pressing so that they get a feel for what customers demand.

I got your point of view where it is subjectively to one preferences. When it comes down to the shopping, it all come to what features or expectations we are looking for. I am very new but I also learned that, some good measurement will give you precise and clean clinical sounds but does not bring you the organic or liveliness, otherwise you sacrificed a bit of your measurement to bring in the harmony, warm and enjoyment to your ear.
Unless you are professional audio engineer or meticulous and curious about how sounds work and how you can improve it, then measurement is very important. Otherwise, as a hobby I am doing stuff with trial and errors to figure out what suit best for my ear and comfort.
In general I respect ones hobby as a personality, the person deserves to has his opinion of what he/she prefers.

Manufacture wise, recently with high end product come with cheaper prices, diversity bring new air but also at the same time we need to respect what we have. Since it is like you enjoy watching your family album more than just look over on the phone where you have everything because the album brings feeling that you cannot touch into the soul as you watch something just on the phone.

 

[Basement]

The engineer said there were no jitter measurements that could be shared publicly. That doesn’t inspire confidence to me as it sounds like either a) there are no measurements whatsoever, or b) they are pretty bad.

After a quick look at streamer reviews by Amir it seems he is not doing any jitter measurements on the digital outputs. What kind of jitter measurements are you looking for? - not sure a J-test at the transmitter end will make any sense.

 

[Music1969]

After a quick look at streamer reviews by Amir it seems he is not doing any jitter measurements on the digital outputs. What kind of jitter measurements are you looking for? - not sure a J-test at the transmitter end will make any sense.

I imagine he means analogue outputs.

Agreed doesn't make sense for digital outputs.

 

[phion]

After a quick look at streamer reviews by Amir it seems he is not doing any jitter measurements on the digital outputs. What kind of jitter measurements are you looking for? - not sure a J-test at the transmitter end will make any sense.

J test for DAC and THD+N was what I was interested in to compare it with Allo Boss2 player.
For digital outputs you can provide jitter spectrum?

Jitter Measurements with APx

www.ap.com

 

[Basement]

Tidal Connect coming?

It's not on our current roadmap.

 

[Basement]

J test for DAC and THD+N was what I was interested in to compare it with Allo Boss2 player.
For digital outputs you can provide jitter spectrum?

Let me see what I can do. We have a soft lock down now so can't promise on timing. Note that I'm here of personal interest and do these things in my spare time.

 

[MaximXXL]

Feel free to ask if you have any tech related questions.

The product description mentions a 64-bit volume control. Does a signal always pass through it or is there also a direct path (physical)?
If so, what is the voltage in this mode? Also what is the output impedance?
This information is not in the description (let alone measurements).

 

[BDWoody]

I also learned that, some good measurement will give you precise and clean clinical sounds but does not bring you the organic or liveliness, otherwise you sacrificed a bit of your measurement to bring in the harmony, warm and enjoyment to your ear.

Is that what we're calling distortion now?

Warm enjoyment?

 

[Basement]

The product description mentions a 64-bit volume control. Does a signal always pass through it or is there also a direct path (physical)?
If so, what is the voltage in this mode? Also what is the output impedance?
This information is not in the description (let alone measurements).

Volume is bypassed at max. Output is 2.1 Vrms and 220 Ohm.

 

[litemotiv]

@Basement, when using digital out from the SOLO, would you recommend optical or coax for best results?

 

[MaximXXL]

for best results?

for your ears or technically?) anyway, you should know that only the optical output completely breaks the electrical circuit between the source and the external DAC.

 

[MaximXXL]

Curious - is there an ess hump or not?

 

[litemotiv]

for your ears or technically?) anyway, you should know that only the optical output completely breaks the electrical circuit between the source and the external DAC.

Technically yes. In a number of cases it appears that optical might be preferred because it is more decoupled, but some devices appear to have a bit more jitter on the optical output (depending on the implementation). So i thought i would ask the designer for their preference in this case. The difference is probably not audible either way...

 

[Hi-fi DTH]

Is that what we're calling distortion now?

Yeah precisely

 

[JaccoW]

I own Argon's Forte A5 active speakers and recently bought the BT3 bluetooth receiver/transmitter for my father second hand for use with an older system. I was positively surprised by the Bluetooth 5.0 aptX HD versus the non-HD version on my Forte's. It sounded much clearer. It does require a compatible phone though.

That isn't that weird with classic non-HD being ‘CD-like’ 16-bit/44.1kHz but at a compression ratio of 4:1 and a data rate of 352kbps. Whereas the HD version is 24-bit/48kHz with a bitrate of 576kbps. Not enough bitrate for the FLAC library I have on my phone perhaps but certainly better than most.

 

[litemotiv]

Is re-clocking performed before sending the signal to the digital outputs (as in Primare Prisma NP5)?

I have done some tests with the Argon SOLO via optical and can report that the device is providing a bit-locked connection to my DAC.

The clock of the SOLO unit i have here is stable but slightly below nominal rate, the DAC indicates that the incoming clock rate is circa 0.003% below standard rate. This is within a studio level deviation of +/- 0.005% and well within the maximum bit-locked range of the DAC of +/- 0.02%.

Jitter over optical is below 0.001% so the clock itself is operating stable within this range.

This is tested with a consumer grade device so don't take the numbers too literally. But overall it appears that the SOLO is working well over optical and is performing as specified within the range expected for a stable connection.

 

[MaximXXL]

Jitter over optical is below 0.001%

Curious how this compares to optical jitter on the Mac mini (2010)... Do you have the opportunity to make such measurements?