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Are tubes more musical?

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FWIW Dept.: There's a community of people in 'high end audio' that use SETs (Single-Ended Triode amplifiers) for the 'sound' they make. SETs make a lot of a 2nd harmonic (quadratic non-linearity) which is musically pleasant when related to the fundamental tone. This is music theory and not electronics. By the same theory, the 7th harmonic is not pleasant and was known to add a 'metallic' quality in audio circuits if too pronounced and this was known way back in the 1930s (but actually for much longer, before electronics existed). So of the three qualities you point out, the one that 'musical' electronics has is 'harmony' due to how they distort.
Then we are back to the idea the harmonics of distortion can only matter if they are audible. Which brings us to what levels are audible. Plus there is not a lot of evidence behind the idea of adding lots of 2nd harmonic being inherently musical when it is added on top of what the recorded music has. You can go too far and it doesn't automatically sound better, smoother or more musical at that point. Which is just the effect I've heard with most SET setups I've listened to so far. It becomes a circus caricature of the music fed into the amp.
 
Yes- I see them as musical instruments rather than musical reproducers.
 
Reckon it is the added harmonics, distortion profile, timbre, voicing or whatever you choose to call it, specific to whatever particular amplifier in question.

Some find this, usually subtle enhancement/distortion to the music pleasant, even though it's no longer strictly the highest fidelity. Generally frowned on here, but I happen to like it. (My amplifier specifically, and not all of the time.) That is why I have two main systems.

I suppose some people might buy tubes for aesthetics alone but I reckon that's kinda nuts, and they are likely a minority.
 
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Reckon it is the added harmonics, distortion profile, timbre, voicing or whatever you choose to call it, specific to whatever particular amplifier in question.

Some find this, usually subtle enhancement to the music pleasant even though it's not strictly the highest fidelity. Generally frowned on here, but I happen to like it. (My amplifier specifically.) But not all of the time. That is why I have two systems.

I suppose some people might buy for aesthetics alone but reckon that's kinda nuts, and they are likely a tiny minority personally.
But many many valve amplifiers certainly do not do any of this and just sounds like a natural SS amplifier and measures quite well, and yet people still talk about them as if they do these things.
 
Placebo, looks etc.?
I don't think so. Have you ever compared a good tube amp to a good solid state amp? People comment about the 'rounder' sound of the tubes vs solid state. You need a lot of feedback to make that 'rounder' 'smoother' quality go away, and with many tube amp designs simply can't support that without their phase margin being exceeded (oscillation). Put another way, people like the distortion.

Even though its not an ABX comparison, the ability to compare side by side is what has kept most tube amp manufacturers alive the last 50 years.
 
I don't think so. Have you ever compared a good tube amp to a good solid state amp? People comment about the 'rounder' sound of the tubes vs solid state. You need a lot of feedback to make that 'rounder' 'smoother' quality go away, and with many tube amp designs simply can't support that without their phase margin being exceeded (oscillation). Put another way, people like the distortion.

Even though its not an ABX comparison, the ability to compare side by side is what has kept most tube amp manufacturers alive the last 50 years.
I had the Schiit Valhalla 2 and tried it along my Singxer SA-1 but I never did any well regulated test. Switching to the Valhalla 2 the first time it sounded the same as the Singxer and I was disappointed. Switching back to the Singxer a few weeks later made things sound better but due to this not being a proper and fair test in any way I would not draw conclusions no matter where the pendulum swings.
 
I don't think so. Have you ever compared a good tube amp to a good solid state amp?
Once or twice. :D

I have not found ANY of the things you attribute to "people." "People" spout all kinds of nonsense when they base their impressions on uncontrolled listening rather than ears-only.
 
People comment about the 'rounder' sound of the tubes vs solid state.
I am sure they do, but people comment about all sorts of things and not only in comparison to tube amps, but DACs, cables, OpAmps, digital cables (!) and whatever as well. So I would take that with a grain of salt.
 
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Measurements can show there's a real and audible difference with tube amps tho. Not usually the case with the examples above however.
 
Measurements can show there's a real and audible
Real? Yes. Audible? Not always, and even when so, not to most. Distortion has to get really bad before most people can hear it. Especially with speakers.
 
Yes- I see them as musical instruments rather than musical reproducers.
Here's the thing though.

A musical instrument has an attack, sustain and decay in which the harmonic content even changes. At each certain moment a 'tone' has a harmonic profile that chances in the next moment. An amplifier does not.

An amplifier adding harmonics does not have attack, sustain and decay but has an harmonic profile. That profile is somewhat level dependent as well.
The thing that also separates an amp from a musical instrument is that not only each fundamental but also each harmonic (of the original sound) gets their own harmonics added.

If that were the only thing that was added one could live with that. Unfortunately an amp also adds IM products from all other tones and those aren't harmonic at all and can create signals that aren't masked by the musical notes. They form a kind of modulated noise floor (clearly seen in multitone measurements). This is not what an instrument does. Sure it can beat and produce IM but not in the same way an amp does.

So ... an amp is not a musical instrument. It can not 'generate' sound by itself the way any instrument does (unless it oscillates :)) it can only amplify and change the applied waveform a tiny bit.
O.K. ... a tube amp can be played like an instrument by tapping the tubes but have not any seen musicians do that, probably because it will be hard to tune the vibrating grid(s).

In the end the best reproduction is when nothing is added.

That harmonic profile of a certain tube or even a tube circuit can be emulated in software... when that is done can that be indistinguishable from the circuit it is imitating ?
If so there is no 'magic' in tubes but it is just an altered signal.
What other signal is there other than the signal in the electrical plane ?
 
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But many many valve amplifiers certainly do not do any of this and just sounds like a natural SS amplifier and measures quite well, and yet people still talk about them as if they do these things.

Maybe some better tube amps. Many lesser ones have not tested well. As I recall, Amir has tested a few more recent tube amps and all measured poorly. Even ones with acclaim like Dynaco and Carver.

High end marketing and owner hype are the main reason there is any market left for tube amps. I have not listened to a tube amp in decades. @SIY knows I contemplated a used MC275 just to experiment, but it needed work and some loonies drove the price to $3000. Show me a performant tube amp for ~$1000 that can drive my Purifi SPK4+ speakers reasonably and will compare to my Purifi EVAL1. Until then, I remain highly skeptical. Given technology trends would bet I die a tube amp skeptic.:)
 
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Here's the thing though.

A musical instrument has an attack, sustain and decay in which the harmonic content even changes. At each certain moment a 'tone' has a harmonic profile that chances in the next moment.

An amplifier adding harmonics does not have attack, sustain and decay but has an harmonic profile. That profile is somewhat level dependent as well.
The thing that also separates an amp from a musical instrument is that not only each fundamental but also each harmonic (of the original sound) gets their own harmonics added.

If that were the only thing that was added one could live with that. Unfortunately an amp also adds IM products from all other tones and those aren't harmonic at all and can create signals that aren't masked by the musical notes. They form a kind of modulated noise floor (clearly seen in multitone measurements). This is not what an instrument does. Sure it can beat and produce IM but not in the same way an amp does.

So ... an amp is not a musical instrument. It can not 'generate' sound by itself the way any instrument does (unless it oscillates :)) it can only amplify and change the applied waveform a tiny bit.
O.K. ... a tube amp can be played like an instrument by tapping the tubes but have not any seen musicians do that, probably because it will be hard to tune the vibrating grid(s).

In the end the best reproduction is when nothing is added.

That harmonic profile of a certain tube or even a tube circuit can be emulated in software... when that is done can that be indistinguishable from the circuit it is imitating ?
If so there is no 'magic' in tubes but it is just an altered signal.
What other signal is there other than the signal in the electrical plane ?
I've seen some pretty crazy things used on stage as instruments FWIW. While my characterization isn't perfect, it does put an SET in the same light as my Blue Sky effects pedal. Or is the same reason recording studios keep older tube stuff on hand, or tape machines, because they add something to the sound they can't get any other way.

And of course tube amps are mostly used as instrument amplifiers rather than home audio. 90% of all tubes are sold for musical instrument amps rather than hifi. Some of those amps, like the Ampeg V4 or Marshall Major, are built to hifi standards of the day. Sunn famously used a Dynaco MkIII as their power amp section. But a lot of that in the old days was how those things were overdriven, which doesn't apply to hifi.
 
The discussion about how tubes sound has been going on since transistors were invented. Tube guitar amps are devices that are designed to produce distortion. I build both tube and solid-state amps mainly for my own amusement and amazement. Many things factor into the sound of an amp. The speaker will have a large effect on how an amp sounds. Capacitors change the sound. The type of iron and the design of the transformers affect the sound.

I see a lot of musicians who will curse transistor amps, especially guitar players. I laugh when the first thing do is put a transistor peddle in front of the amp. I can say definability that guitars react differently when plugged into tube amps, especially at high volume levels.

People can say what they think but nothing sounds exactly like a Hammond B3 with a Leslie. Many transistor/software emulations of B3 organs exist but none I have listened to sound exactly like a B3. Not every type of music sounds better through tubes. We went to transistor amps for jazz as soon as good transistor amps were available. Many younger musicians are playing through transistor amps nowadays. Part of the reason is because the styles of music have changed. Much of the music is much more rhythmic based with less melodic content.

There is no good or bad involved and one is not more or less musical than the other.

Cheers,

Billy
 
I can say definability that guitars react differently when plugged into tube amps, especially at high volume levels.
You can say it, but can you really definability say it?
 
Yes- I see them as musical instruments rather than musical reproducers.

Nothing wrong in playing around with sound, if that turns your crank, IMO.
 
The discussion about how tubes sound has been going on since transistors were invented. Tube guitar amps are devices that are designed to produce distortion. I build both tube and solid-state amps mainly for my own amusement and amazement. Many things factor into the sound of an amp. The speaker will have a large effect on how an amp sounds. Capacitors change the sound. The type of iron and the design of the transformers affect the sound.

I see a lot of musicians who will curse transistor amps, especially guitar players. I laugh when the first thing do is put a transistor peddle in front of the amp. I can say definability that guitars react differently when plugged into tube amps, especially at high volume levels.

People can say what they think but nothing sounds exactly like a Hammond B3 with a Leslie. Many transistor/software emulations of B3 organs exist but none I have listened to sound exactly like a B3. Not every type of music sounds better through tubes. We went to transistor amps for jazz as soon as good transistor amps were available. Many younger musicians are playing through transistor amps nowadays. Part of the reason is because the styles of music have changed. Much of the music is much more rhythmic based with less melodic content.

There is no good or bad involved and one is not more or less musical than the other.

Cheers,

Billy
Maybe spend less than 20 minutes watching this video. As usual nothing exotic or unknown or unmeasurable is going on with the tone of guitar amps.

 
Even if tomorrow I managed a blind test that showed me I couldn’t distinguish my tube amplifiers from a solid-state amplifier, I would still keep my tube amplifiers. For me aesthetics are pretty valuable in the gear I own.

On my rack, I display my tube amps because I like how they look. But when it comes to things like my benchmark DAC, I hide it in the rack because I find it an eyesore.

Avert your eyes from the following if you are allergic to anecdotes:

Many years ago, I had a pair of speakers I was reviewing, which were quite neutral and whose manufacture was quite opinionated about all the BS in high-end audio - cable nonsense, nonsense about amplifiers sounding different, tubes are for idiots, that kind of thing. that’s why he demonstrated his very expensive loudspeakers with very cheap amplifiers and off the shelf cables.

I loved the sound of his loudspeakers, which I drove with a Bryan amplifier because he forbid the use of tubes with his speakers. But found them a little bit “ dry” sounding in my room. I couldn’t help myself and hooked up a small, 28W locally built tube amp. Built by a local guy who seem to have some idiosyncratic ideas about amplifier circuits (zero feedback, and all that).

My impression was “ wow” in the way the sound seemed to completely lose its slight edge and dryness, becoming more smooth, less mechanical, but remaining incredibly clear, spacious and detailed.

When the manufacturer of the speakers came to pick up the speakers I remember him suspiciously eyeing the tube amplifier as I said he held the tube amps were ridiculous and this day and age and also that they couldn’t be predicted to drive his speakers properly like a decent solid state amp.

I had him sit down and listen to a couple tracks with his speakers hooked to that tube amp and he pretty much sat there astonished. He turned me afterwards with a very genuine look of satisfaction and amazement and said something along the lines of:
“ that’s what we are always looking for In stereo playback. That kind of experience.!”

That certainly didn’t convert him to tube amplifiers. And of course the fact is maybe that amplifier sounded no different than the solid-state amplifier hooked up to those speakers. But at the very least it didn’t seem to be doing any harm, given the sonics we heard.

And between the Bryston and those tube amps, I would pick the tubes for aesthetics and conceptual appeal. (though I always had the Bryston on hand, for speakers that were harder to drive. I wasn’t prone to listening really loud and didn’t have a big room so I usually didn’t need gobs of power.).
 
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