Godataloss
Senior Member
At some point you have to put the microphone down and see how good a listener you are otherwise the confirmation bias of the images of your FR sweeps are no different than the 'audiophools' magic cable interconnects.
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Are Active/Powered speakers the future?
- Thread starter carewser
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They are completely different, good FR characterises the speakers performance, good measurement equals transparency.
Keith
Keith
audio2design
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Are you really comparing cheap mass market sound bars and Bluetooth speakers to large special purpose speakers? Can you even imagine how bad the bass would be on your Bluetooth if not active?
Your receiver having Dirac is a completely different issue.
It's a good point, valerianf. But alot of folks don't even have or really need receivers these days. Because their TV's can handle most of those tasks. And good receivers aren't that cheap anymore! Unless maybe you can find one used or at a garage sale. This is one of the reasons I was thinking about trying some powered speakers.
That brings up another issue with the active/powered approach though... which is how do you control the volume? I know there are some newer, and more expensive powered monitors that have built-in preamps and even digital inputs now, which are designed for fixed level inputs. But those are a fairly recent development, that costs more $$. And most of the more affordable powered monitors, at least on the pro audio side of the equation, are not typically plug and play! And do not have a built-in volume control or preamp. All they generally have are some gain knobs on the back. Because the preamp/volume control would usually be on a separate mixing board.
If you are using the digital or analog audio output on a TV as your source, that will often be at a fixed level, rather than variable. With no way to control the volume. I know it is like that on my own TV (which is an older Samsung LED model, but not that old). Because I've tried both the analog and digital audio outputs on it. And they are not effected by the TV's volume control.
What that probably means is that you will need either a separate preamp, which aren't that easy to find, or cheap anymore. And would probably run as much or more than a decent receiver. Or more likely a good DAC, with a decent built-in preamp... IF your sound source has a digital output! Either way, you're looking at some potential additional expenses. And when you begin factoring some of these other costs and inconveniences in, then a receiver with a pair of flat unpowered monitors begins to look like a much more reasonable and competitive solution.
A L/R stereo balance control (not to mention some EQ features) might also be useful in addition to some type of volume control. And most of that you can get on a receiver. The only DAC I've ever owned is a basic $30 24-bit/96 kHz job from Best Buy, to convert the TOSLINK optical output on my TV and coaxial output on my BD player to analog, which works just fine with my headphone amp. So I don't know how easy or cheap a DAC with a preamp, and maybe some of these other features would be to find. Because it's not something I've ever needed or even bothered to look into. I know people are paying upwards of $500 and even $1000 for these devices though, for their more expensive headphones and desktop monitors, which seems ridiculous just to have a way to control your volume!
As I said before, it is a confusing time in the audio world, with all of these new and (potentially) "wonderful" connectivity options.
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Ultrasonic
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Firstly, active speakers don't actually need to have the amps inside the speakers, although I reaslise that has been the focus of this thread. The definining feature of an active design is actually that the power amp stage comes after the crossover, rather than before. You are also seemingly unaware of the benefits that this brings, even in a purely analogue active design. The following is one reasonable summary:
Active Amplification | ATC Loudspeakers
atcloudspeakers.co.uk
Once you go a DSP active crossover there is additional scope for applying EQ to optimise performance.
You probably realise, but note that it is not possible for Dirac Live to perform equivalently too.
Not finding fault with your explanation, just adding my own color:Firstly, active speakers don't actually need to have the amps inside the speakers, although I reaslise that has been the focus of this thread. The definining feature of an active design is actually that the power amp stage comes after the crossover, rather than before. You are also seemingly unaware of the benefits that this brings, even in a purely analogue active design. The following is one reasonable summary:
Active Amplification | ATC Loudspeakers
Once you go a DSP active crossover there is additional scope for applying EQ to optimise performance.
You probably realise, but note that it is not possible for Dirac Live to perform equivalently too.
The subject is "active/powered speakers", but we are talking about powered speakers. Further, there are no "active speakers", there are active (crossover) filters. That is, there are passive filters (made of capacitors, inductors, and resistors), and active filters (which contain gain elements, resistors and capacitors).
Active filters are more flexible in a number of ways, and don't lose signal level—and eliminate inductors entirely, the most annoying component—but it's impractical to feed them with high voltage signal levels and power. Passive filters only need the proper ratings on the components, and don't need to be powered. So, if a power amp is feeding a crossover (in a passive speaker system), it's going to be a passive crossover. And if the speaker is powered and has drivers over multiple bands, it's almost certainly an active crossover feeding multiple amps.
Of course it's possible to have a powered multi-way speaker that has a single amp and a passive crossover, but usually powered multi-way speakers want to have efficient amplification (for heat purposes, at minimum).
And, of course, it's possible to have passive speaker enclosures fed by multiple amps, fed by active crossovers. Probably still used in large-scale professional sound (concerts), and at one time in studios. I used to use (still have) 8-inch 2-way speakers with separate 12-inch woofer cabinets, using a rack-mount active crossover to amp the 2-way cabinet and the woofer cabinets separately—so there are both active and passive crossovers involved.
But really we're either talking about power speakers (that happen to have active crossovers), and unpowered speakers (that happen to have passive crossovers). So "active" is pretty much a moot point for the purposes of this thread.
You are right, I am probably using the terms "active" and "passive" incorrectly in this context, and should be using powered vs. un-powered instead, to be more clear. And have edited a couple of my most recent posts to try to correct that.
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Ultrasonic
Addicted to Fun and Learning
But really we're either talking about power speakers (that happen to have active crossovers), and unpowered speakers (that happen to have passive crossovers). So "active" is pretty much a moot point for the purposes of this thread.
I don't really agree. For those interested in sound quality I think a key appeal of powered speakers is specifically the benefits from using active crossovers. It is for me, and I almost certainly wouldn't own any if it wasn't for this. Which is not to say that speakers with active crossovers are automatically better as they certainly aren't. Also, I think you'd struggle to find any half-way compentent powered speakers that didn't use active crossovers.
My point being I don't think it's coincidental that we may be considering speakers with active crossovers, but fundamental to why they might have a chance of becoming more commonplace amongst those interested in sound quality.
I think you misinterpreted my post—undoubtedly my fault for the side explanations. But I'm not totally sure where you feel your viewpoint is different from what you thought mine was—it seems you think I'm saying the active filters are no big deal?? No, my point is we love active filters, and putting the amps in the speakers themselves makes for a tidy and efficient way to accomplish using active filters. Active filters and separate amps is the ideal.
Still, for home stereo in particular, there is some practicality in a central amp driving unpowered speakers with passive crossovers in them. Mainly, the speakers don't require AC power outlets and cords. (And when upgrading speakers, it's potentially less costly to buy unpowered speakers and keep the same amp.)
The rest was hedging by including special cases (certainly, for instance, somewhere there is a powered speaker with no crossover at all), in case someone found fault with me only considering two cases. But the normal case is—for multi-way speaker enclosures—powered speakers with active crossovers, and unpowered speakers with passive crossovers. In my mind, powered speakers are best—the manufacturer has made an entire system that they represent is their best work for the use and price, and we only need to decide if they are right, and the product suits our needs and budget.
Godataloss
Senior Member
That should be easily testable then. If they were indeed all acoustically identical, then no one system should be identifiable, let alone have greater "fidelity". What I'm speaking of would be if the hardline measurement guys could pick these "beyond the threshold of audibility" perfect systems out from a sample that included systems containing different approaches when judging the aforementioned "fidelity".
Andretti60
Active Member
I don’t consider active speakers “the future”, rather a new technology that can help our life. Do I want a full fledge hi-end hi-fi stereo system in the kitchen while I am cooking, in the bed listening to ambient music before falling asleep or in my office for listening background music at low volume while I work? What about a portable speaker when I move around the house doing domestic chores or when I go in vacation.
Of course not, and those are cases where a small set of active speakers or a small portable Bluetooth box can do a good job without sacrificing too much of quality.
Then, let’s face it, not everyone live in a mansion with a dedicated room for music listening, another one with a home theater and another one with a pool table and a pinball machine. Most of us nowadays live in small places in crowded cities, or in very expensive areas where real estate is at a premium. In cases like this, a small set of QAcoustic 3030 is much better than the first stereo system I had in my life 40 years ago.
Of course not, and those are cases where a small set of active speakers or a small portable Bluetooth box can do a good job without sacrificing too much of quality.
Then, let’s face it, not everyone live in a mansion with a dedicated room for music listening, another one with a home theater and another one with a pool table and a pinball machine. Most of us nowadays live in small places in crowded cities, or in very expensive areas where real estate is at a premium. In cases like this, a small set of QAcoustic 3030 is much better than the first stereo system I had in my life 40 years ago.
Ultrasonic
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Yes, to me the sentence of yours that I quoted read to me like you were arguing that active crossovers were irrelevant ('moot') to the thread, whereas I was trying to make the point that for those asking 'what's the point' regarding active speakers that I think this really is a key element.
And yes, I'm sure you're right about off-board amps with active crossovers being strictly better. Although the number of apparently very highly performing active monitors that have on-board amplification makes me think this can't really be too critical?
For context my own experience with active speakers is fairly limited but I've been impressed by some I've heard (ATC and Canton) and am intereested to experience what some more studio focused models may offer. As I type this I'm using some Edifier S3000 Pros actually, in part as a driver in my main speakers needs replacing.
Ah, makes sense, thanks for explaining. Now, when I said "moot" ('So "active" is pretty much a moot point for the purposes of this thread'), I meant that while the subject line says, "Are Active/Powered speakers the future?", we might as well drop the "active" part, since it's just a detail of having powered speakers (not strictly speaking, but practically speaking). In other words, we probably don't need to care exactly what's in the powered speaker as far as crossover and amps—it either performs as a system the way we want for the price we like, or we buy something else.
I'm in agreement with you here. I definitely didn't mean to imply there was any benefit in having the components off-board, I was just saying that was something that existed in the past, and probably still exists for pro sound (concert sound systems). For my home studio, I would certainly want powered, self-contained monitors, as I have now and going forward. My main monitors are digitally corrected, so they have A/D and D/A built in, and I assume my small ones (ILoud MTMs) do but I'm not certain (could very well be digitally-controlled analog filters). So, at this point, I'd just as soon have digital inputs and just network my speakers, so I think that's the future (available now, but not ubiquitous).
But if I were to put in a new system in my living room..it might be old school with amp and passive speakers. AC power is a little awkward there.
I know the ATCs are very popular for studios, and PMC is current hot. I have no idea what Canton is doing these days, but I still have my Canton CT-1000 pair from the mid '80s. Immediately fell in love with them back them, what a great sounding speaker. Soon (lol), I'll finish up my refinishing job on my living room floor, mount a new TV on the wall, and figure out what I'm going to do about sound. It could be the old Cantons, but I might want to get something smaller.
The market has already decided. The sort of gear that is discussed by hifi enthusiasts is a niche, and even that niche is steadily moving towards powered and active speakers or headphones. Go to shops and unless you seek out one of the remaining traditional hifi shops then pretty much all you see is wireless speakers, sound bars and headphones. I know most audiophiles seem to shudder at these products but they clearly provide what most people want. Are they as good as, or better than, well set up monitors or hifi speakers? Probably not, but does that matter? For people who just want to enjoy music or better movie sound the attributes of a simple, easy to use and well featured solution which doesn't cost the earth are more important. I think as with anything, understand what you want and work from that.
Active speakers are definitely the future. However, actives are presently hamstrung by manufacturers that don't understand both technologies: speakers and amplifiers. Placing the amplifier within the speaker enclosure requires expert integration of both.
Active speakers are a disruption to traditional music playback technology and thus are presently resisted until proven to be better. Once one or two manufacturers successfully offer a really good solution to the deficiencies of the present 'mix and match' guessing games or amps and speakers, I expect the traditionalists to be disrupted. Old prejudices die hard. But the development of switching power supplies and switch-mode amplifier outputs, added to the low heat output, DSP, and long-term reliability of solid-state will easily trump perceived disadvantages of less choice.
Looking at the market, we just aren't there yet. The few offerings for the home playback system are not clearly superior to the mix and match mindset... yet.
But expect this: In ten years, active speakers will be common hifi appliances. Bet against that and you will lose.
Active speakers are a disruption to traditional music playback technology and thus are presently resisted until proven to be better. Once one or two manufacturers successfully offer a really good solution to the deficiencies of the present 'mix and match' guessing games or amps and speakers, I expect the traditionalists to be disrupted. Old prejudices die hard. But the development of switching power supplies and switch-mode amplifier outputs, added to the low heat output, DSP, and long-term reliability of solid-state will easily trump perceived disadvantages of less choice.
Looking at the market, we just aren't there yet. The few offerings for the home playback system are not clearly superior to the mix and match mindset... yet.
But expect this: In ten years, active speakers will be common hifi appliances. Bet against that and you will lose.
Old Listener
Senior Member
You are focused on using the words "active" and "passive" to describe individual components. For more than 20 years, the same words have also been used to describe speakers as a whole. In that usage, "active" has come to refer to speakers which have the crossover function before power amplification. "Passive" refers to speakers which have the crossover function after the power amplification function. That second usage has been used throughout this thread.Not finding fault with your explanation, just adding my own color:
The subject is "active/powered speakers", but we are talking about powered speakers. Further, there are no "active speakers", there are active (crossover) filters. That is, there are passive filters (made of capacitors, inductors, and resistors), and active filters (which contain gain elements, resistors and capacitors).
Active filters are more flexible in a number of ways, and don't lose signal level—and eliminate inductors entirely, the most annoying component—but it's impractical to feed them with high voltage signal levels and power. Passive filters only need the proper ratings on the components, and don't need to be powered. So, if a power amp is feeding a crossover (in a passive speaker system), it's going to be a passive crossover. And if the speaker is powered and has drivers over multiple bands, it's almost certainly an active crossover feeding multiple amps.
Of course it's possible to have a powered multi-way speaker that has a single amp and a passive crossover, but usually powered multi-way speakers want to have efficient amplification (for heat purposes, at minimum).
And, of course, it's possible to have passive speaker enclosures fed by multiple amps, fed by active crossovers. Probably still used in large-scale professional sound (concerts), and at one time in studios. I used to use (still have) 8-inch 2-way speakers with separate 12-inch woofer cabinets, using a rack-mount active crossover to amp the 2-way cabinet and the woofer cabinets separately—so there are both active and passive crossovers involved.
But really we're either talking about power speakers (that happen to have active crossovers), and unpowered speakers (that happen to have passive crossovers). So "active" is pretty much a moot point for the purposes of this thread.
Context. For the purposes of this thread, the question is powered or not.
I don't think anyone here is concerned about what kind of crossover a pair of candidate powered speakers has (almost certainly active), or what kind of crossover a certain pair of unpowered speakers has (almost certainly passive). These days, we rarely buy crossovers, we buy speakers and they come with what they come with. (I do have a rackmount stereo 3-way crossover here, from decades ago, but it's unlikely I'll ever buy component crossovers again, I doubt most people ever will.)
So, yes, I'm "focused", that was the point. Look back on the comments that I was addressing when I original suggested the focus.
They are the past, the present and the future.
Have been around in pro audio (industry that makes our music) for long time, but at the same time consumers could purchase if they wanted.
They seem to be gaining popularity in our niche world though. DSP speakers have been around a long time (Meridian, Dynaudio, B&O) but I think KEF gave affordable + great performing DSP active speakers a big jump in popularity.
Will be interesting to see where KEF go beyond 5-inch woofer 2-way bookshelf LS50... and what others do.
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