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Apple's first high-end headphones

brandall10

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These adjustments are aimed at the hard of hearing rather than altering the frequency response, unfortunately, and give mainly varying frequency levels of, effectively, compression :(

Yeah, I'll also say after further listening and going back to default settings, I think I do prefer default. It does seems impart a loss of quality (ie. compression).

It's unfortunate Apple could not offer a couple other EQ alternatives surfaced in the main settings area. It seems the default is designed to straddle the line between consumer and audiophile preferences... it would be great if they offered at least another that closely tracked the Harman curve.
 

Frank Dernie

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Yeah, I'll also say after further listening and going back to default settings, I think I do prefer default. It does seems impart a loss of quality (ie. compression).

It's unfortunate Apple could not offer a couple other EQ alternatives surfaced in the main settings area. It seems the default is designed to straddle the line between consumer and audiophile preferences... it would be great if they offered at least another that closely tracked the Harman curve.
It is the Harman bass hump I am trying to avoid.
It sounds unnatural to me on acoustic music.
 

Noodles

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It's a nicely made headphones using cheap components and DSP corrected to eek out the cheapness. It sounds on par with a 100 bucks wired headphone... Which for a bt one is actually a complement.
The price though is typicall Apple...
 

A Surfer

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It's a nicely made headphones using cheap components and DSP corrected to eek out the cheapness. It sounds on par with a 100 bucks wired headphone... Which for a bt one is actually a complement.
The price though is typicall Apple...
Please tell us which Bluetooth headphones you have owned.
 

Noodles

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Please tell us which Bluetooth headphones you have owned.
Currently own a Sony 1000xm3 because of comfort.
Owned or listened to in the past:
B&W PX7, PX, PX5, P7
Beyer Amiron Wireless copper
Bose QC25, 35
M&D 65
NAD 70
Drop Panda
Hifiman Deva
Marshall major 3
Beats solo 2

They are nowhere near the comfort of the Sony or the SQ of the Amiron and Panda.
Their sound is more like the NAD and Deva than to the others.

They kinda sound like the wired SHP 9600.

Sound wise they are really nothing special. For a bt headphone though its pretty good.

It's the price that kills it though. If these were 350ish then sure, but at 550 and especially since airpods pro exist .... kthxbye
 
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bobbooo

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Well, calling 600's balanced while they're almost like 6-7dB short in bass is actually an overstatement. Liking thin sounding gear ain't no crime, but come on. I'll be happy to see 600/650 cultism slowly disappearing, due to them being just insufficient. Actually, the bass fundamentals range are mostly missing in 600's.

Not to say that I'm not personally quite disappointed with how APM's measure on the couplers, yet...

... accounting for typical head vs head variation between people, I'd say that treble tuning being -5dB from the target is a very safe way to go, considering that the target group either doesn't care or doesn't know better, and you'd be risking putting them into shrillness region, if boosted towards Harman - even here at ASR the variance towards Harman is so big, that we can't consider crowd here being positive towards the curve - and that's okay. Being shrill might be worse than feeling "muffled" - especially if you're trying to beat XM4's & Bose NC700, both of which are either dark or very forward.

My first impression with (won - so hardly buyer's remorse & self-compensating the act of spending much money) QC35-II was that they are so full and unmuffled that I was lotta impressed. So much that I became disillusioned w/ razor-thin KNS8400s and pretty much anything bass-lacking.

Lack of body is mistaken for detailed and that's something that we all should fight.

I said the HD600 is more balanced. I totally agree on bass, it's definitely required for an accurate approximation of the sound the mastering engineers heard in the studio (which should be the aim), and so shouldn't be skimped on. Basically, both the APM and HD600 are flawed headphones, but for most people, the APM will sound more flawed (even for all the Apple cultists out there, not that they'd ever admit it). The APM has a similar overall spectral tilt to the Sony XM3's, which is to say dark and muffled:

Harman 2018-Apple AirPods Max (preliminary)-Sony WH-1000XM3 (wireless)-1.png


To illustrate my point further using objective metrics from Oratory's measurements, take a look at the steep downward slope of the linear regression line through the XM3's error response (upper curve, similar in tilt to the APM as seen above):

20201224_015126.png


Compare with the HD600, which has an almost flat spectral tilt:

Screenshot_20201224-015548_Samsung Internet.png


In numbers, that's a slope of around -2 for the XM3 according to AutoEQ's ranking table, among some of the worst in terms of that metric (again, which will be similar to the APM). Contrast that to a slope of ~0.1 for the HD600, with 0 being neutral overall spectral tilt. And it's this metric (the slope of the error response) that has the majority contribution to the headphone preference rating formula as determined in scientifically controlled, double-blind listening tests.
 
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Bob-23

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all the Apple cultists
Convincing members of a religious community, idolizing shiny, overpriced, and not rarely technically flawed devices, satisfied to be caught in a closed proprietary system, closed software and closed software - that's probably not gonna work, as with all believers.
 

wgb113

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Yeah, I'll also say after further listening and going back to default settings, I think I do prefer default. It does seems impart a loss of quality (ie. compression).

It's unfortunate Apple could not offer a couple other EQ alternatives surfaced in the main settings area. It seems the default is designed to straddle the line between consumer and audiophile preferences... it would be great if they offered at least another that closely tracked the Harman curve.

With the tech on-board I'm sure it'd be easy to.

I'll report back next week after I've had some time with them. They'll be compared to my current crop:

AKG K872
Sony MDR-1000X
B&W PX7
Sennheiser HD58x
 

Mashcky

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I have to admit I don’t understand the polarizing views on Apple products. Their mobile devices are best in class, their computers are excellent if you can afford them and can live with their many compromises.

The rest of their products are luxury products. For what it’s worth, the APM does exceed its competition on features, build quality, and sound quality. That much everyone here seems to agree on. The price however is abhorrent, but a result of Apple’s luxury angle and a regional profit-maximizing choice.
 

Lorenzo74

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https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020...gic-of-airpods-in-a-stunning-over-ear-design/



I would love to know what magic or tricks Apple can make with headphones. Or maybe just another "lifestyle" product?

I learned to never underestimate Apple engineering capability. their user experience is unmatched. I believe they put more engineering hours into this products than any other headphones available in the market today.
Beyond incredible talents, Apple have also access to development and testing assets other boutique/garage high end headphones manufactures dream off.
Looks like a Bose lifestyle product with excellent Hardware-software packaging addressing typical issues most (of all) others left undealt.
price is pretty high as well even if the BOM might be 1/5...
Having said that I'm looking for objective data and direct subjective listening test before any further comment...

Happy and Healthy Year End to All ASR community.
Lorenzo
 

maverickronin

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I have to admit I don’t understand the polarizing views on Apple products. Their mobile devices are best in class, their computers are excellent if you can afford them and can live with their many compromises.

The many compromises in all their products. They're all ridiculously locked down and it's Apple's way or the highway.
 

Lorenzo74

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Okay, so not high end.

I don't think anyone on ASR thinks Bose is high end, just because the masses think it is.
I think Bose has one of the best Noise cancelling technology in the market. if you travel from Europe to Tokyo or to Seattle or New York on a 777-787 better to reduce the Noise than increase the Signal quality. same if you commute ona a train.
if you leave in anechoic peaceful country side maybe other headphones will deliver better sound...
 

KeithPhantom

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That these are being touted as nearly as good as the HD6xx is astounding.
When I get these today I’ll see if they’re worthy of selling me into the fully wireless future of audio, but getting close to my HD 600 is going to be hard for them.
 

Mashcky

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The many compromises in all their products. They're all ridiculously locked down and it's Apple's way or the highway.
100%! But I don’t see Apple detractors often acknowledging that this doesn’t matter to many people. And if it doesn’t matter, Apple land is not a bad place to be.

I’ll be interested your hear your thoughts on the APM KeithPhantom.
 
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KeithPhantom

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100%! But I don’t see Apple detractors often acknowledging that this doesn’t matter to many people. And if it doesn’t matter, Apple land is not a bad place to be.
It depends on what you consider a ‘compromise’. For many, Apple is an upside for most people looking for simple usability and convenience, even if you consider all the quirks their products bring if you’re not into their ecosystem. But for audio, they’ve been doing some great things with DSP lately, and for what I know, they deliver what they promise and do not sell you snake oil. I just hope they take care of the longevity factor of some of their other products.
 

wgb113

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100%! But I don’t see Apple detractors often acknowledging that this doesn’t matter to many people. And if it doesn’t matter, Apple land is not a bad place to be.

I’ll be interested your hear your thoughts on the APM KeithPhantom.

THIS. I switched to a Mac 14 years ago after nothing but problems with my open and free Windows machines and have never looked back or felt limited/compromised by what Apple has to offer. It's been smooth sailing ever since. Do I think their products are the best out there or the best value - not usually. Do I think they're the best for me - you bet!
 

A Surfer

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100%! But I don’t see Apple detractors often acknowledging that this doesn’t matter to many people. And if it doesn’t matter, Apple land is not a bad place to be.

I’ll be interested your hear your thoughts on the APM KeithPhantom.
I know it is a little harsh but I can't help but think of Apple diehards as almost sheep like who love to follow the cult of Apple so not really an approach I can identify with or understand. The whole idea of a technical monopoly/ecosystem approach I find a little repugnant. I have heard conflicting information regarding Apple quality when it comes to the phones. I owned the iPhone 7 for a work setting and did not find it anything special in either UI or hardware.
 
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A Surfer

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As for the XM3, which I own, I agree, the stock signature is terrible. Why I kept them and enjoy them is that once you trim away the bass bloat via a decent eq (I use the eq in Onkyo HF Player) the signature is allowed to breathe and I found the balance was of course greatly improved and the overall signature to actually be very well suited for true portable use. The headphone that I really like and have ended up using more than the XM3 is the KEF Space One Wireless. The KEF NC is not great, but I found even with the Sony I was defeating the NC anyway as I tend to listen loud enough that the music and passive isolation for headphones is adequate when taking public transit in a fairly busy urban setting.
 

maverickronin

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100%! But I don’t see Apple detractors often acknowledging that this doesn’t matter to many people. And if it doesn’t matter, Apple land is not a bad place to be.

Maybe if they ever become "user friendly" enough that I don't actually need to support them at work any longer because the users can do everything themselves I'd change my mind...
 
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