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Any thoughts on Subwoofers? Measurements and accuracy?

oursmagenta

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It's difficult I have 'heard' the REL is more musical, AKA, articulate then SVS. I am new to mesurements but there's more to reproduction than db at particular frequencies is there? Articulation and speed HAS to be a factor at the driver level ?

It may, and it is usually measured with the group delay, but you can forget any musical, speed, articulate menonics here at ASR (they doesn't make much sense anyway).
You should read this: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/10-nonsense-myths
 
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Slayer

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It's difficult I have 'heard' the REL is more musical, AKA, articulate then SVS. I am new to mesurements but there's more to reproduction than db at particular frequencies is there? Articulation and speed HAS to be a factor at the driver level ?
Look at the measurements and test results for the Monolith 10'' THX sub. Erin has them here and look at the review measurements on audioholics.com. You can also run this sub in sealed mode. I can tell you though, in ported mode it is very articulate. I would not keep focusing on the sealed or ported enclosure debate. Those differences have long been compensated for by proper engineering in todays top sub manufactures.

You may well, just be intent on getting a REL sub, which is fine. However, you should remember you can get just as good if not Better for less money.
 
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wrigglycheese

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Just how did you determine this? Like the small driver or sealed thing being "better"?

The only way possible without actually listening to 10 subs side by side in the exact same position - a lot of reading, a lot of listening to others experience, my own experience and intuition, the fact is I have NO SOLID IDEA. You seem to be under the impression I am a moron. I'd really, and this goes out to a few of you, stop trying to guage me from a few forum words, if we ever sit down and have a proper back n forth chat, maybe skype? Then we can get somewhere. I don't like conversing via text and never have. If you wanna ask me some of these questions PM me for a skype and we can have a good indepth chat.
 
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wrigglycheese

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It may, and it is usually measured with the group delay, but you can forget any musical, speed, articulate menonics here at ASR (they doesn't make much sense anyway).
You should read this: https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/10-nonsense-myths

Thanks mate, with so much BS around and constant debate it's so hard to make an informed choice, often anyway.

I had a few quid and just wanted to make a nice little small space setup to enjoy, best for my money, but whatever one person says someone else says something else and it's sometimes quite a drag specially when a few people just have an automatic up their own arse assumptious attitude and I have a razer sharp 'cunt detector' and a short fuse....

That kinda sounded funny
 
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Aerith Gainsborough

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Thanks mate, with so much BS around and constant debate it's so hard to make an informed choice, often anyway.
You can say that again *chuckles*.

I have researched subwoofers for almost 18 months now. Simulating with REW, reading, trying to convince myself, simulating how audible things were by EQing the crap out of my poor little mains, reading some more, learning (a ton) about room interactions etc. Until I was confident enough that I could make it work, not just in regards to integration with my mains but also with my neighbors.

There comes a point at which you just have to take the plunge because only the actual, physical object in your environment can answer these last questions. It's a pain and the prospect of having to send back bulky equipment (especially if you don't have a vehicle, like me) doesn't make it anymore alluring. ._.
 

Chrispy

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The only way possible without actually listening to 10 subs side by side in the exact same position - a lot of reading, a lot of listening to others experience, my own experience and intuition, the fact is I have NO SOLID IDEA. You seem to be under the impression I am a moron. I'd really, and this goes out to a few of you, stop trying to guage me from a few forum words, if we ever sit down and have a proper back n forth chat, maybe skype? Then we can get somewhere. I don't like conversing via text and never have. If you wanna ask me some of these questions PM me for a skype and we can have a good indepth chat.

Just asking a question since you were the one who had "answers", yet no solid idea what you have answers to.....

Skype? LOL never have, never will.

I can't imagine buying a Rel personally, too little performance at too high a price. Good luck, tho.
 
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wrigglycheese

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You can say that again *chuckles*.

I have researched subwoofers for almost 18 months now. Simulating with REW, reading, trying to convince myself, simulating how audible things were by EQing the crap out of my poor little mains, reading some more, learning (a ton) about room interactions etc. Until I was confident enough that I could make it work, not just in regards to integration with my mains but also with my neighbors.

There comes a point at which you just have to take the plunge because only the actual, physical object in your environment can answer these last questions. It's a pain and the prospect of having to send back bulky equipment (especially if you don't have a vehicle, like me) doesn't make it anymore alluring. ._.

I appreciate this and I have been down this path before hence my mentioning the room more often than not being the biggest obstacle specially when it comes to SUBS! but a good start is a good peice of kit I guess, then room treatment/EQ etc, but honestly I'm not going that deep to it this time, just a good choice of sub for my money, to compliment my Concept 20's which I absolutely like and you're right one does just have to give it a go in the end.
 
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wrigglycheese

wrigglycheese

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Skype? LOL never have, never will.

Yeah it's not surprising, to me anyway, many 'forum folk' prefer to avoid face to face, can't think about your answers for half an hour or hide behind text gotta just talk/debate like a man. As one would sitting accross from a mate with a beer, just solid no holds barred conversation and noone to rescue you except yourself if you don't like what someone says.
 

Chrispy

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Yeah it's not surprising, to me anyway, many 'forum folk' prefer to avoid face to face, can't think about your answers for half an hour or hide behind text gotta just talk/debate like a man. As one would sitting accross from a mate with a beer, just solid no holds barred conversation and noone to rescue you except yourself if you don't like what someone says.

I do face to face in person, you're too far away, tho the beer would be nice. I'm not hiding, if you want to be an internet tough guy, go for it! Just curious how you came to the conclusions you did, sounds like something from some of the more unreliable audio magazines/reviewers....
 

Desmo

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Why? It should be all about getting the best performance for the dollar that you can get.
I listed the RSL 10s because it meets his needs and is cheaper than the REL.
A better value would be the Monolith 10'' THX sub, goes on sale every other week and outperforms the subs we discussed. Still an awesome value at the reg price of $499. Great connection options, built in DSP, more power, can't be over driven, built like a tank. Plus it has measured very well, all the testers have been extremely surprised by it's performance.
Monolith by Monoprice 10in THX Select Certified Subwoofer Amplifier - Monoprice.com

I know you really like the Monoprice Monolith. But did you consider that the OP is living in the UK
and that the Monoprice Monolith maybe isn't available in the UK?
 

Slayer

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I know you really like the Monoprice Monolith. But did you consider that the OP is living in the UK
and that the Monoprice Monolith maybe isn't available in the UK?
Americanaudioco.UK was selling them a few months ago. Not sure if they still have them or not. The company themselves were advertising their sales of the subs on AVS forum. Monoprice Monolith THX Subwoofers | Page 4 | AVForums
Not sure if if there are other companies in the UK offering them or not. The main reason i like and recommend them is, dollar for dollar value, their hard to beat, that's all. I have other subs to, just trying to point out the outstanding value. cheers mate.
 

Desmo

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Americanaudioco.UK was selling them a few months ago. Not sure if they still have them or not. The company themselves were advertising their sales of the subs on AVS forum. Monoprice Monolith THX Subwoofers | Page 4 | AVForums
Not sure if if there are other companies in the UK offering them or not. The main reason i like and recommend them is, dollar for dollar value, their hard to beat, that's all. I have other subs to, just trying to point out the outstanding value. cheers mate.

Cheers to you too. Have a nice weekend.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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The main reason i like and recommend them is, dollar for dollar value, their hard to beat, that's all.
Unfortunately, dollar for dollar value often goes into the crapper if you try to order US based brands in the EU and vice versa.
 

Chromatischism

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It's difficult I have 'heard' the REL is more musical, AKA, articulate then SVS. I am new to mesurements but there's more to reproduction than db at particular frequencies is there? Articulation and speed HAS to be a factor at the driver level ?
Some drivers are better suited to the task than others, sure. But it's more than the driver. The driver needs to be paired with the right enclosure volume and sealed or vented based on its T/S parameters. It's a system and it all needs to work together. Then there is DSP which needs to be applied after the best location is found in the room for the sub and your seat because the room will distort its sound no matter how good the sub is. It almost doesn't even matter if DSP was applied at the sub-level to achieve a flat response outdoors because you won't get that. You hear the sub + the room.

Beyond that, generally light and very stiff is preferred in drivers, and there are many ways to get there. PSA uses a hardened paper. JTR uses a paper/kevlar blend. Rythmik uses aluminum. Whatever is chosen affects the T/S parameters, along with the excursion or linear travel, which dictates enclosure volume and makes some drivers better for vented and some better for sealed, and sensitivity which affects amplifier pairing. As far as one sounding better than another if frequency response is the same, I'm not sure. Frequency response is what we hear, so if that is held flat you won't be able to hear differences at these frequencies where there is no difference in dispersion width unlike smaller speaker drivers that have audible differences due to how they create different reflections in a room. At subwoofer frequencies, all of the sound you will hear is coming from all around you – the ceiling, the floor, and the walls. The pressure emanates from the sub and expands in all directions simultaneously.

With all of that said, I do believe subwoofers sound different between brands, but I think that is mostly because you can't keep all of the variables constant when comparing them. When you swap out a sub, you are changing the driver and the enclosure, which gives a different tuning frequency. Some alignments and port locations change how it interacts with the room. Some will be using DSP to shape the frequency response differently which has a huge impact on the sound. In addition, some designs will cause more vibrations and give more of a tactile feel while others will be more stealthy. None of this has anything to do with driver material, though.

Larger is generally better. To achieve the same SPL, a 15" driver will only have to move a very small amount compared to an 8" driver which will lead to much lower distortion and cleaner playback. Vented reduces distortion further by increasing efficiency by using the back wave of the driver to produce SPL in phase within a certain frequency band, best optimized at 20 Hz and below. My 15" vented subs are much, much cleaner than any 8" sealed box on the planet for these reasons. At the same time, if you call upon them, they have huge output capability that a sealed 8" can't even dream of. What they can not do as well as the 8" boxes is hide from the spouse. But life is all about trade-offs :)
 
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