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Any good budget stereo amps?
- Thread starter rickoo111
- Start date
In wondering if say the dac has 100sinad and the amp has 90 SINAD. So the system will be at best 90sinad?Nothing specific but will be sooner than later.
Nothing specific but will be sooner than later.
Hi amirm, do you think you can up the review for
http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/apa150-150w-power-amplifier.html
Pretty anxious
Thanks
Yeah, the Dayton APA150 has been around for many years in different guises...perhaps Thomas A. Edison certified it himself
Emotiva BPA-1 (back when it was sold by AV123), Franklin IA150, even a Linn Audio of New Hampshire (no, not the UK Linn) version that sold for $1000 with supposed component tweaks. There are a lot of reviews and owner feedback out there. I have not seen any serious measurement.
Emotiva BPA-1 (back when it was sold by AV123), Franklin IA150, even a Linn Audio of New Hampshire (no, not the UK Linn) version that sold for $1000 with supposed component tweaks. There are a lot of reviews and owner feedback out there. I have not seen any serious measurement.
JustIntonation
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THD+N is stated as 0.01% which is -80dB.
And I'd be surprised if this is indeed the case for the high frequencies. As far as I can tell so far there's a tendency with class D amps to have a strongly rising harmonic distortion above 1 to 5kHz. The exception to this seems to be the Anaview AMS amps and Hypex NCore amps.
I've said it before but I'll say it again. So far the Anaview AMS0100_2300 seems to be the best cheap amp out there (0.002% THD+N and 115dB dynamic range). 163 euro including cable set and VAT in the EU, $156 excluding VAT for outside EU. For one of the best sounding stereo amps out there regardless of price! 50W @4ohm stereo, 120W @6ohm BTL.
Only needs to be put in a case (make it out of wood if you hesitate working with a metal case). And one needs to take the lack of input stage in consideration, connect it with a balanced source with low output impedance (no passive pre-amp) and short cables.
I have one, it sounds fantastic.
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/inde...prechershop.de/hifi/anaview_uebersicht_en.htm
Measurements with AP system here: http://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/anaview/anaview_ams0100_2300.pdf
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Are we talking about the Dayton APA150? It is a class A/B amp. The spec I see is for THD, which appears to be an old school measurement. If it is true, it is well below audiblity if this is the standard FTC spec. It is certainly orders of magnitude below that of any speakers it is likely to be connected to. They rate the APA150 S/N at greater than 100 dB.
All of this is confusing because as you say, recent specifications of amplifiers, particularly Class D, seem to be only incidentally tied to reality. We certainly live in a time of fake news.
JustIntonation
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Ah thanks for correcting me. I somehow thought it was a class D amp..
Well perhaps that merrits measurements by Amir indeed
What are your thoughts on the 9150 model? https://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=A-9150&class=Amplifier&source=prodClass
Does this look like much of an upgrade or is it basically the same level of parts?
The 9010 is highly reviewed by WHF
I think that in reality most of these amplifiers will sound fine. The big advantage of big advantage of brands like Marantz, Onkyo and yamaha is that they are well represented in local dealers so you can listen before buying and have somewhere to return to in the event of anything going wrong. Cambridge Audio offer some good solid down to earth gear which won't break the bank. The performance figures do at least put those for DACs into perspective.
What Hi-Fi? Yeah... I'd take whatever they say with a massive dose of salt.
I hope Amir measures more of these affordable integrated amplifiers though.
while there are certainly boat loads of little class-d / t amps for little money and various Yamaha , Onkyo , Pioneer, NAD options as well..
Another 'exciting' ?? option can be vintage stereo gear if you have the space /luck / money ?? etc
in my home office (aka small bedroom) I have this gear I have found over the years :
Sony ES stack (TA-N77ES, TA-E77ESD, 700ES, 730ES, C75ES) due to great luck on my part this stack of sony goodness cost me under $100US
Also on my Desk Kenwood KR-V106R ($20) 100wpc receiver and Pioneer SX-3600 ($80)
Obviously used can have downsides , not working, needing repair ..etc. the stuff mentioned above all works / sounds great seems to measure within specs (If I'm honest the digital input on the Sony TA-E77ESD doesn't seem to work.. I haven't been able to look at it.)
Another 'exciting' ?? option can be vintage stereo gear if you have the space /luck / money ?? etc
in my home office (aka small bedroom) I have this gear I have found over the years :
Sony ES stack (TA-N77ES, TA-E77ESD, 700ES, 730ES, C75ES) due to great luck on my part this stack of sony goodness cost me under $100US
Also on my Desk Kenwood KR-V106R ($20) 100wpc receiver and Pioneer SX-3600 ($80)
Obviously used can have downsides , not working, needing repair ..etc. the stuff mentioned above all works / sounds great seems to measure within specs (If I'm honest the digital input on the Sony TA-E77ESD doesn't seem to work.. I haven't been able to look at it.)
Yes I think those are the two smartest options. Electronics from the likes of Yamaha, Pioneer etc, and particulalry the models with multiple digital inputs so you don´t have to worry about getting a DAC, or good quality vintage gear, particularly the power amps, and preferably refurbished. My main power amplifier is a completely refurbished Quad 606-2 that I bought for 350 euro from a retired Quad service engineer, and my desk top amplifier is a refurbished Quad 405-2 from the same source, bought for 175 euro. Both use modern DACs as front ends. With power amplifiers you will almost always have to have the electrolytic capacitors replaced to avoid the risk of catastrophic failure. Modern ones will have the additional advantage that they are often physically smaller for the same performance, so you can move one size up for a bit more headroom.
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Because I know the gear (having sold it for decades), and because I am both miserly and patient, vintage gear for me can be a great choice.
However, it often not a great choice for those who lack these characteristics. You got a truly remarkable deal on your Sony stack...but the average sale price of the TA-N77ES amp used/good on eBay is over $1200.
A lot of classic vintage gear is selling on eBay well over its value based on performance (and likely reliability) due to baby boomer nostalgia, and aesthetics (those amazing analog power meters). Plus of course, not al electronics ages well, and it is hard to find competent audio techs with knowledge of vintage gear who work cheap.
No question you can find great used deals..and if a new buyer would give someone like you (or me) a month to find the right stuff for them, it can end nicely. But, I bet just as many new buyers do very poorly buying vintage stuff as do well.
That's why I do a few repairs on vintage equipment for free, just for the pleasure of doing it, and if somebody wants to buy me a nice bottle of wine for my efforts, then so be it. If I would find it interesting or fancy a challenge, then I do it, otherwise pass.
Considering what a techie has to charge if they're doing it commercially and trying to make a living, a lot of vintage stuff just doesn't warrant the cost of repair. On the other hand, when it's done for fun, then it's satisfying keeping old stuff out of landfill and giving it a second life.
S.
I get a kick out of looking on ebay at the current prices of a Marantz 2270. Nice refurbs are going for $2,000.
Never should have let my X have mine in the divorce. LOL
Never should have let my X have mine in the divorce.
LOLI mean fair enough.. certainly.. used can be a bit tricky.. I have had bad luck on ebay with SAE and h.h. Scott amps that didn't work when they arrived..most of my finds have been local.. I knew nothing (next to at least) when I started being interested in vintage gear I found a little pioneer integrated amp (SA-410) for $10 at an estate sale.. I googled about how to clean the controls / check the DC-Offset voltage to try to confirm it wouldn't blow my speakers and I was off and running.
I followed a couple simply rules when looking around.. does it look higher end? is it heavy .. and of course looked stuff up on my smartphone to see what people had to say online.. Most times I have been able to at least test to power on / listen for relays clicking over.. I've taken my chances a couple times (with the Sony stack.. but honestly given the cosmetic conditions I was not worried as 1 working component would be enough to cover my losses if the amp had been a bust or something?)
If you can find stuff local and reasonable $25~ or whatever which is what I've found many old receivers for or less, even if you bought a dud or two and got lucky on the third it would still be cheaper than buying a new amp?
Mostly I just love the look and build quality of the older gear the feel on the control knobs.. they lights / meters.. good stuff.
Correct.
You have to take these detailed measurements of amps, DACs, etc. in context.
The "audiophile" press is small, and is directly sponsored by the industry via paid advertisements. Therefore Amir and other independents who perform these kinds of measurements are performing an important service to the community and to the industry at large.
Amir takes the most detailed measurements possible with his equipment, and that's important for science and transparency's sake. However, that doesn't mean small differences (or even some large differences) are necessarily audible.
Consider the following:
- Unless an amp is damaged or is being pushed to the point where it distorts heavily, your speakers will have far more effect on your system's sound than the rest of the signal chain... by orders of magnitude.
- Unless an amp is damaged or is being pushed to the point where it distorts heavily, your room will have far more effect on your system's sound than the rest of the signal chain... by orders of magnitude.
- Unless an amp is damaged or is being pushed to the point where it distorts heavily, your speaker placement within your room will have far more effect on your system's sound than the rest of the signal chain... by orders of magnitude.
- This is a big topic, but some types of distortion may sound subjectively pleasing to many folks. Obvious example is even-order harmonic distortion exhibited by many tube amps, but there are many others.
- Your room will probably have at least 40dB of background noise, and sounds over 90dB are well into "bad for you" territory, so the effective dynamic range we really "need" from the signal chain feeding our speakers could be said to be only around 50dB. More dynamic range and less distortion is definitely better, but consider that next time you're comparing amps whose SINAD differs by a few dB.
- When Amir points out anomalies at 20khz or higher, that's interesting from an engineering standpoint but not directly audible unless you're a bat. At 30-40 years old, you're lucky to hear anywhere near 15khz, and your limit is quite likely below that.
The reality is that just about any amp you can buy, including a lot of cheap class D amps, and certainly including a lot of $100-$200 class AB home theater amps, will sound pretty darn good. You can have a very good sounding system for a few hundred bucks even if buying new... even modest bookshelf speakers can sound darn nice with proper positioning (typically, this means on stands a few feet away from a wall, but will be different in every room)
I'm sure that some will see this as a criticism of detailed measurements such as Amir's. Nothing could be farther from the truth: I'm a fan... this work is a huge boon to the community.
Better-measuring gear almost always will sound better to some extent.... sometimes to a large degree, and sometimes to a miniscule degree. Just don't think that you need to chase down gear with jaw-dropping measurements to have a good time.
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