Any good budget stereo amps?

[Aprude51]

You have to take these detailed measurements of amps, DACs, etc. in context.

The "audiophile" press is small, and is directly sponsored by the industry via paid advertisements. Therefore Amir and other independents who perform these kinds of measurements are performing an important service to the community and to the industry at large.

Amir takes the most detailed measurements possible with his equipment, and that's important for science and transparency's sake. However, that doesn't mean small differences (or even some large differences) are necessarily audible.

Consider the following:

- Unless an amp is damaged or is being pushed to the point where it distorts heavily, your speakers will have far more effect on your system's sound than the rest of the signal chain... by orders of magnitude.
- Unless an amp is damaged or is being pushed to the point where it distorts heavily, your room will have far more effect on your system's sound than the rest of the signal chain... by orders of magnitude.
- Unless an amp is damaged or is being pushed to the point where it distorts heavily, your speaker placement within your room will have far more effect on your system's sound than the rest of the signal chain... by orders of magnitude.
- This is a big topic, but some types of distortion may sound subjectively pleasing to many folks. Obvious example is even-order harmonic distortion exhibited by many tube amps, but there are many others.
- Your room will probably have at least 40dB of background noise, and sounds over 90dB are well into "bad for you" territory, so the effective dynamic range we really "need" from the signal chain feeding our speakers could be said to be only around 50dB. More dynamic range and less distortion is definitely better, but consider that next time you're comparing amps whose SINAD differs by a few dB.
- When Amir points out anomalies at 20khz or higher, that's interesting from an engineering standpoint but not directly audible unless you're a bat. At 30-40 years old, you're lucky to hear anywhere near 15khz, and your limit is quite likely below that.

The reality is that just about any amp you can buy, including a lot of cheap class D amps, and certainly including a lot of $100-$200 class AB home theater amps, will sound pretty darn good. You can have a very good sounding system for a few hundred bucks even if buying new... even modest bookshelf speakers can sound darn nice with proper positioning (typically, this means on stands a few feet away from a wall, but will be different in every room)

I'm sure that some will see this as a criticism of detailed measurements such as Amir's. Nothing could be farther from the truth: I'm a fan... this work is a huge boon to the community.

Better-measuring gear almost always will sound better to some extent.... sometimes to a large degree, and sometimes to a miniscule degree. Just don't think that you need to chase down gear with jaw-dropping measurements to have a good time.

I love this comment! I’m just getting into audio and feel like this is an honest summary that should be the “party line” in the audio press, but isn’t for reasons you succinctly capture here as well.

 

[Sal1950]

Better-measuring gear almost always will sound better to some extent.... sometimes to a large degree, and sometimes to a miniscule degree. Just don't think that you need to chase down gear with jaw-dropping measurements to have a good time.

To this I would like to add this observation.
What has made Amir's unbiased measurements the most valuable, is that it's shone you don't have to pay large sums of money to get world class performance. Very low cost items such as DAC's and headphone amps have been revealed that provide top shelf numbers. And that big money doesn't necessarily provide stellar results, sometimes actually the opposite is the case.
Thanks Amir for keeping this site one that can't be bought.

 

[guenthi_r]

If not already posted:

Audiosource AMP 100

 

[snapcrackle]

Sorry for replying on a somewhat older thread here but - upon reading (perhaps more skim reading) all the above about finding a good budget amp - are these well measuring budget amps suitable for hi-end speakers?

Usually - in the fabled hi-end world - if you bought a pair of hugely expensive audiophile speakers (and perhaps we can generally agree that speakers make more difference in a separates system than anything else) - and you slapped a budget amplifier in front of it - then this 'unbalanced' solution will result in poor sound quality (gigo).

I am just pondering... can we really say that a cheap 'well measuring' Topping digital front end - along with a Yamaha AS501 (for example) - into a £!0,000 pair of speakers will allow these speakers to work at their very best??

 

[Willem]

As an experiment I have been listening for the last few days in our large living room to the pretty high end Harbeth P3ESR speakers (plus a Kef Kube8 subwoofer) of my desktop system driven by my daughter's Yamaha AS501, and there was absolutely nothing wrong with the sound. This basic Yamaha AS501 clearly exceeds the limits of human hearing, so I do not believe further sonic improvements are possible as long as the 2x85 watt at 8 Ohm power suffices. That was not quite the case in our large (75 sqm) room, but the small P3ESRs cannot handle much more power either. But it clearly is a very nice system for a smallish apartment.
The main reason I would not use this Yamaha in a more expensive system would be that that system would presumably have larger speakers that can handle more power, and would be in large room. In short, I would use a more powerful amp. The good news is that even such powerful amplifiers do not need to cost an arm and a leg. An RME ADI-2 DAC/preamp and a P502 Hypex power amp would cost about 2000 euros between them, and give you all the power that you need.
Finally, could you go even cheaper than this? Perhaps yes, but not much, and not with ambitious speakers, that would not make sense. My bottom end integrated amp would be the 190 euro Yamaha AS 201 (analogue inputs only). Combined with the Wharfedale Diamond 220s that I just bought for 125 euro (the pair) to use in our garden room it would make a pretty decent budget system used with the analogue output of a Chromecast Audio. Recently some even cheaper chip amps have been tested and discussed here, but I don't think they are worth the money in anything other than a garage system.
But yes, provided the 2x85 watt power is enough (i.e. in a medium sized room at most), the AS 501 would be fine. It also has digital inputs so you do not even need a DAC.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Sorry for replying on a somewhat older thread here but - upon reading (perhaps more skim reading) all the above about finding a good budget amp - are these well measuring budget amps suitable for hi-end speakers?

Usually - in the fabled hi-end world - if you bought a pair of hugely expensive audiophile speakers (and perhaps we can generally agree that speakers make more difference in a separates system than anything else) - and you slapped a budget amplifier in front of it - then this 'unbalanced' solution will result in poor sound quality (gigo).

I am just pondering... can we really say that a cheap 'well measuring' Topping digital front end - along with a Yamaha AS501 (for example) - into a £!0,000 pair of speakers will allow these speakers to work at their very best??

The short answer is yes, as long as the amp is powerful enough (this can be determined by factoring in your loudspeakers' efficiency and your listening distance and levels) and doesn't have anything egregiously wrong with it (e.g. huge levels of distortion, channel imbalance, HF roll-off, etc.).

I haven't seen measurements of the AS501, so I'm not sure about that amplifier specifically. But there are plenty of sub-$1k amps on the market that will drive any pair of speakers as well as any other (much more expensive) amp, provided power output is sufficient.

 

[Willem]

https://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/wzmacniacze-stereo/2415-yamaha-a-s501

 

[snapcrackle]

...
But yes, provided the 2x85 watt power is enough (i.e. in a medium sized room at most), the AS 501 would be fine. It also has digital inputs so you do not even need a DAC.

So there we have it - a pair of (again I repeat) >£10,000 pair of loudspeakers driven by a low cost AS-501 would sound as good as the designer of those loudspeakers intended in a medium sized room! And as a bonus the AS-501 has a DAC too!

(the Audiophillia Nervosus in me would probably gun for an AS-801).

All Audio-fools out there - take note - this is how you system build nowadays for the highest quality most enjoyable musical noises you can get .

 

[Willem]

The AS701 and AS801 are very similar to the AS501, but with a bit more power. The AS801 is identical to the AS701 apart from the usb input that the AS501 and 701 do not have (only optical and coaxial).

 

[abdo123]

So you’re going to defecate on your SINAD score by using some botchy pre-amp on a budget integrated amplifier?

If your DAC has volume control then use that, don’t use a pre-amp.

 

[snapcrackle]

So you’re going to defecate on your SINAD score by using some botchy pre-amp on a budget integrated amplifier?

If your DAC has volume control then use that, don’t use a pre-amp.

Interesting - what is it about a DACs volume control which is superior over a regular pre-amp in an integrated ?

If you come back with a reasonable answer you will have me looking for a low cost (but well measured) power amp

 

[Willem]

So you’re going to defecate on your SINAD score by using some botchy pre-amp on a budget integrated amplifier?

If your DAC has volume control then use that, don’t use a pre-amp.

What is the argument? Or evidence?

 

[Willem]

Of course my RME ADI-2 DAC/preamp has a better SINAD. Do I notice the difference with the Yamaha? I don't.

 

[abdo123]

Interesting - what is it about a DACs volume control which is superior over a regular pre-amp in an integrated ?

If you come back with a reasonable answer you will have me looking for a low cost (but well measured) power amp

To get what you paid for in the DAC (SINAD wise), you need to get an Amp with 10 dB lower SINAD score.


From what i experienced with commercial integrated amps at this price range (Denon, Yamaha, Onyko .etc). that they barely go above 70 dB SINAD (at best).

Now don't get me wrong it is perfectly transparent for 99% of use, but your purchasing logic is weird.

"I payed a lot of money for the DAC and speakers" How much did you pay? What did you buy? What are you expecting from the amp?

We need a little bit of context here.

 

[Frank Dernie]

To get what you paid for in the DAC (SINAD wise), you need to get an Amp with 10 dB lower SINAD score.


From what i experienced with commercial integrated amps at this price range (Denon, Yamaha, Onyko .etc). that they barely go above 70 dB SINAD (at best).

Now don't get me wrong it is perfectly transparent for 99% of use, but your purchasing logic is weird.

"I payed a lot of money for the DAC and speakers" How much did you pay? What did you buy? What are you expecting from the amp?

We need a little bit of context here.

The overall SNR of an integrated is usually dominated by the power stage, not the preamp.

 

[abdo123]

The overall SNR of an integrated is usually dominated by the power stage, not the preamp.

Depends on the sensitivity of the speakers and how much you need to use the pre-amp.

my point is that he doesn’t need a pre-amp if he has volume control in the DAC and depending on how good the DAC is, there is a good chance the DAC will perform better than the pre-amp.

 

[Vasr]

Sorry for replying on a somewhat older thread here but - upon reading (perhaps more skim reading) all the above about finding a good budget amp - are these well measuring budget amps suitable for hi-end speakers?

Usually - in the fabled hi-end world - if you bought a pair of hugely expensive audiophile speakers (and perhaps we can generally agree that speakers make more difference in a separates system than anything else) - and you slapped a budget amplifier in front of it - then this 'unbalanced' solution will result in poor sound quality (gigo).

I am just pondering... can we really say that a cheap 'well measuring' Topping digital front end - along with a Yamaha AS501 (for example) - into a £!0,000 pair of speakers will allow these speakers to work at their very best??

There are two types of AudioPhoolery - one that holds putting anything that is budget priced in the chain with expensive equipment is foolish. And the other that putting anything that isn't amongst the highest SINAD relative to its class even if it fits the requirements is foolish. A great many people in this forum subscribe to the latter. You cannot get away from AudioPhoolery anywhere.

Expensive speakers aren't necessary harder to drive and the only "balancing" you need is to match power/impedance requirements of the speaker. The noise and distortion are hygiene factors in that you need minimum hygiene. Too much of a noise floor will result in hiss from sensitive speakers. Too much distortion will affect the quality of sound. Most brand-name amps outside of PA applications will satisfy the minimum hygiene (people can't even seem to hear 1%+ distortion introduced into content!). Some amps have pronounced roll-offs at either end of the spectrum especially those that are doctored for a specific type of sound and one may wish to avoid those if not looking for that doctoring.

If the budget amps are unsuitable, it is primarily because of their power capabilities and their behavior within their power envelope. This is solved very simply by over-provisioning with power which is cheap to get these days.

Whether these units are well-built, behave well if and when speaker impedance dips low and the company gives honest measurements are more important than what the absolute numbers of those measurements are when the minimum hygiene is saisfied.

There is no magic a pre-amp or a DAC will create by going up in SINAD beyond minimum hygiene and has no bearing on whether you will enjoy it more or less other than psycho-somatic effects related to its price or SINAD depending on the audio-phoolery one subscribes to.

 

[Willem]

To be precise, the Yamahas have their own inbuilt DAC. How its output is then channeled to the power amp is another story, of course. For systems with separates I fully agree that a preamp is superfluous. I don't have one in my system with an RME ADI-2 DAC/preamp and a refurbished Quad 606-2 power amp. But if you are on a tight budget or dislike clutter, getting everything in one box is economical. And as long as you have enough power and the amp has a low output impedance you are fine.

 

[abdo123]

There are two types of AudioPhoolery - one that holds putting anything that is budget priced in the chain with expensive equipment is foolish. And the other that putting anything that isn't amongst the highest SINAD relative to its class even if it fits the requirements is foolish. A great many people in this forum subscribe to the latter. You cannot get away from AudioPhoolery anywhere.

Expensive speakers aren't necessary harder to drive and the only "balancing" you need is to match power/impedance requirements of the speaker. The noise and distortion are hygiene factors in that you need minimum hygiene. Too much of a noise floor will result in hiss from sensitive speakers. Too much distortion will affect the quality of sound. Most brand-name amps outside of PA applications will satisfy the minimum hygiene (people can't even seem to hear 1%+ distortion introduced into content!). Some amps have pronounced roll-offs at either end of the spectrum especially those that are doctored for a specific type of sound and one may wish to avoid those if not looking for that doctoring.

If the budget amps are unsuitable, it is primarily because of their power capabilities and their behavior within their power envelope. This is solved very simply by over-provisioning with power which is cheap to get these days.

Whether these units are well-built, behave well if and when speaker impedance dips low and the company gives honest measurements are more important than what the absolute numbers of those measurements are when the minimum hygiene is saisfied.

There is no magic a pre-amp or a DAC will create by going up in SINAD beyond minimum hygiene and has no bearing on whether you will enjoy it more or less other than psycho-somatic effects related to its price or SINAD depending on the audio-phoolery one subscribes to.

I completely agree.

To add to that, the more hygienic your equipment is the more likely it will reveal unhygienic practices in the production of the track you’re listening to.

So it could actually backfire.

 

[Willem]

What has puzzled me for a long time and still puzzles me is the limit of about 100 watt per channel at 8 Ohm that all these budget amplifiers seem to have. Is there a technical reason such as that to get more power it suddenly gets quite a bit harder and more expensive? Or is it just market forces?