Any good budget stereo amps?

[Frank Dernie]

To be precise, the Yamahas have their own inbuilt DAC. How its output is then channeled to the power amp is another story, of course. For systems with separates I fully agree that a preamp is superfluous. I don't have one in my system with an RME ADI-2 DAC/preamp and a refurbished Quad 606-2 power amp. But if you are on a tight budget or dislike clutter, getting everything in one box is economical. And as long as you have enough power and the amp has a low output impedance you are fine.

I am a big fan of amps with built in DACs.
Ever since my test 10 years ago between level matched DACs I haven't considered a DAC to be a bottleneck, so having it not needing a separate box, connectors, power supply and cables is a big saving in pointless BOM to my way of thinking as well as neater.
3 of my 4 systems now use Amps with built in DAC and the fourth an strangely unique device, the Resolution Audio Cantata music centre which is a CD/DAC/preamp but no analogue input but since it is the bedroom system I don't need any analogue inputs and I love its styling

 

[abdo123]

What has puzzled me for a long time and still puzzles me is the limit of about 100 watt per channel at 8 Ohm that all these budget amplifiers seem to have. Is there a technical reason such as that to get more power it suddenly gets quite a bit harder and more expensive? Or is it just market forces?

it’s a class A or Class A/B thing.

Because heat dissipation is a big problem when you’re at 60% efficiency at high capacities, among other things.

Class D is a completely different story. The numbers are often quite high.

 

[Frank Dernie]

What has puzzled me for a long time and still puzzles me is the limit of about 100 watt per channel at 8 Ohm that all these budget amplifiers seem to have. Is there a technical reason such as that to get more power it suddenly gets quite a bit harder and more expensive? Or is it just market forces?

I don't know, maybe there is some inexpensive custom silicon that achieves this.
When I was first into hifi amps were about 8 watts, 12 watts was a big one and 100W would be a considered a dangerous monster

 

[abdo123]

I don't know, maybe there is some inexpensive custom silicon that achieves this.
When I was first into hifi amps were about 8 watts, 12 watts was a big one and 100W would be a considered a dangerous monster

Speaker sensitivity was often much higher few decades ago.

 

[Colonel7]

So there we have it - a pair of (again I repeat) >£10,000 pair of loudspeakers driven by a low cost AS-501 would sound as good as the designer of those loudspeakers intended in a medium sized room! And as a bonus the AS-501 has a DAC too!

(the Audiophillia Nervosus in me would probably gun for an AS-801).

All Audio-fools out there - take note - this is how you system build nowadays for the highest quality most enjoyable musical noises you can get .

Then just get the RN-803 instead of the 801. It includes wifi streaming and has multiple optical inputs and some analog outputs as well.

 

[Colonel7]

it’s a class A or Class A/B thing.

Because heat dissipation is a big problem when you’re at 60% efficiency at high capacities, among other things.

Class D is a completely different story. The numbers are often quite high.

Thinking it's more marketing and 100 watts is the target based on what sold 40 years ago. I have an amp advertised at 0.2% at 100 watts 8 ohms, when the knee is actually around 92 or so watts at much lower distortion. But who wants 90 watts when there is 100 out there from competition.

 

[abdo123]

Thinking it's more marketing and 100 watts is the target based on what sold 40 years ago. I have an amp advertised at 0.2% at 100 watts 8 ohms, when the knee is actually around 92 or so watts at much lower distortion. But who wants 90 watts when there is 100 out there from competition.

The problem is that there aren’t many commercial options ABOVE 100W. Not the other way around.

 

[Willem]

Power is king, but indeed there are not that many affordable options above 2x100 watt. Pro audio amps are the best way to go, and can be very good in fact (but not always). A few years ago I bought a 2x250 watt Yamaha P2500s for my son for 300 euro. The 2x350 watt P3500s measured very well: https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum...mpli-yamaha-p3500s-mise-a-jour-t30056383.html The fan never comes on in domestic use. Again, this example shows that good enough quality does not have to cost an arm and a leg.

 

[Colonel7]

The problem is that there aren’t many commercial options ABOVE 100W. Not the other way around.

This is Emotiva's niche for A/B. Not thinking it's hard, probably just less demand

 

[Willem]

But Emotiva is not really a convenient option in Europe. I would love to see measurements of the new Yamaha PX series of class D pro audio amps that replaced the Pxx00s series.

 

[ck42]

This is Emotiva's niche for A/B. Not thinking it's hard, probably just less demand

Thinking of ordering and drop-shipping the Emotiva Bas-X A100 to ASR...so we'd at least have numbers of that one.

 

[Katji]

Transformers for higher power more expensive. Bigger and heavier. Big heatsinks can be surprisingly expensive. Both of those show in amplifier build threads - see what big old transformers cost and what new ones cost, small business manufacturers. (btw, it reminds me of one story where the heatsinks caused major delays in progress. Replaced the first ones he got, then had to get them surface ground/milled to be flat enough.)
Output stage becomes more critically important, probably the components more expensive.
Class D changes the picture, but the good /more hi-fi/ ones are not inexpensive; refer to prices of Hypex Ncore and so on.

 

[snapcrackle]

Then just get the RN-803 instead of the 801. It includes wifi streaming and has multiple optical inputs and some analog outputs as well.

Amplifier - built in DAC - Wi-Fi built in - what's the point of buidling a separates system anymore (if you are all digital)?

Isn't the built in DAC of an amp more likely to suffer interference form the innards of the amp?

Also isn't streaming via Wi-Fi a bad thing for good sound too?

 

[Willem]

Isn't the built in DAC of an amp more likely to suffer interference form the innards of the amp?

Potentially yes, but this mostly seems to be a problem with AV receivers, although the Yamaha RN803 is not perfect either.

Also isn't streaming via Wi-Fi a bad thing for good sound too?

Only if your wifi is crap. With good wifi, streaming will be as good as wired internet. Anyway, you will notice because the sound stops. There is no subtle degradation as with analogue connections.

 

[Katji]

Power is king, but indeed there are not that many affordable options above 2x100 watt. Pro audio amps are the best way to go, and can be very good in fact (but not always). A few years ago I bought a 2x250 watt Yamaha P2500s for my son for 300 euro. The 2x350 watt P3500s measured very well: https://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum...mpli-yamaha-p3500s-mise-a-jour-t30056383.html The fan never comes on in domestic use. Again, this example shows that good enough quality does not have to cost an arm and a leg.

Yamaha and Behringer are good value there. The really cheap pro audio amps are not; SND not good, sustained power not good, not reliable. The more serious, more superior pro audio amps are expensive. ...And you see it with how much they sell for even when they're old.

 

[Katji]

[...]
Isn't the built in DAC of an amp more likely to suffer interference form the innards of the amp?

Not if good/competent design, with isolation and noise rejection. ...Many do not use USB/digital isolator devices/chips.

 

[Colonel7]

Potentially yes, but this mostly seems to be a problem with AV receivers, although the Yamaha RN803 is not perfect either.

Only if your wifi is crap. With good wifi, streaming will be as good as wired internet. Anyway, you will notice because the sound stops. There is no subtle degradation as with analogue connections.

Amplifier - built in DAC - Wi-Fi built in - what's the point of buidling a separates system anymore (if you are all digital)?

Isn't the built in DAC of an amp more likely to suffer interference form the innards of the amp?

Also isn't streaming via Wi-Fi a bad thing for good sound too?

Can you hear it? You can always do the wired internet connection thing too. I don't even bother playing stuff from my own network or cds anymore. I did initially but only out of guilt

 

[Katji]

But Emotiva is not really a convenient option in Europe. [...]

Not just Europe. Shipping is expensive plus it affects the calculation of import taxes and then VAT. ...And if there is some local/regional agent, those costs are factored in already anyway.

 

[ta240]

Thinking it's more marketing and 100 watts is the target based on what sold 40 years ago....

That is my thinking; it is a nice round number that for years has been hardwired into people's minds as what they need.
Very few shoppers will look at the distortion numbers or how the 100 was measured it just has to have 100 watts per channel and they are happy.

Imagine being the R&D guy that tries to get a manufacture to make a mainstream A/B amp of 150 or 200 wpc. Marketing would shoot them down saying that is pro territory and they don't need to waste their money on that when people just want 100.

 

[Willem]

Very few shoppers will look at the distortion numbers

True, but the 2x100 watt of the Yamaha AS701/801 are true and honest watts: https://www.audioholics.com/amplifi...1-amplifier-review/yamaha-a-s801-measurements