• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Another Opinion on Why Vinyl is Better.

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,793
Likes
37,702
So you're not accomplished in analysing the behaviour of electrical circuits using simulation software, I take it? Do you believe that the behaviour of an audio system is complete invariant to the ears, irrespective of the quality of the electricals involved?

If you don't know krabapple, then you wouldn't understand why your query was an insult. If you do know krabapple, then your query was more rhetoric rather than straightforward discussion. In any case, he may not answer as it is a waste of time. If you wish to engage him in useful discussion, and his discussion can be plenty useful and informative, you will have to do better than that.
 

TBone

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
1,191
Likes
348
You just need the gerbil noise filter upgrade.

cheeky upgrade ...
baby-gerbil.jpg


years ago, fishing camp up north, a week stay, this bold and cute local Chipmunk would come to camp to visit. Didn't take long for this rodent to make my camp his home (so I called him White Socks). He'd eat right out of my hand, but he remained cautious to my every move. On one sunny afternoon, while taking a snooze, lying on a picnic bench ... I woke as I felt something fuzzy on my chess, White Socks was napping too ...
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
191
Location
Australia
If you don't know krabapple, then you wouldn't understand why your query was an insult. If you do know krabapple, then your query was more rhetoric rather than straightforward discussion. In any case, he may not answer as it is a waste of time. If you wish to engage him in useful discussion, and his discussion can be plenty useful and informative, you will have to do better than that.
No, I don't know krabapple - apart from from the fact that he sticks out like a sore thumb in this discussion ... care to enlighten me on his abilities ... ?
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,793
Likes
37,702
No, I don't know krabapple - apart from from the fact that he sticks out like a sore thumb in this discussion ... care to enlighten me on his abilities ... ?
Nope

This forum is supposed to also be fun. You will have fun finding out for yourself.
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
191
Location
Australia
What I'm learning on this forum is that the important thing here is to have attitude ... and lots of it ... o_O
+1
 

Don Hills

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
708
Likes
464
Location
Wellington, New Zealand

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
191
Location
Australia
I could have said, "Ditto" or merely repeated the post in total - amounts to the same thing ...
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
191
Location
Australia
Bob, I don't visit the places he seems to frequent, but he appears to be a classic, old school objectivist, with the typical fetish for the magic of DBTs to resolve everything - I can't see anything else interesting ...
 

AJ Soundfield

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,001
Likes
68
Location
Tampa FL
old school objectivist, with the typical fetish for the magic of DBTs to resolve everything
That would be the child IQ view, but DBTs are neither magic nor strawmen elixirs. They are adult themed audio science Frank and thus beyond audiophile believer comprehension.
Vinyl can't be distinguished by anyone vs digitally encode/decode vinyl without peeking, which says everything about both. No magic, except to kids.
 

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
191
Location
Australia
That would be the child IQ view, but DBTs are neither magic nor strawmen elixirs. They are adult themed audio science Frank and thus beyond audiophile believer comprehension.
AJ, my own experiments with DBTs have shown me that either the testing apparatus is not sufficiently competent, I'm thinking the Foobar extension here, or that the use with music content is doomed to give poor results - an example of the latter instance is when I did experiments with reversing dynamic decompression some time ago, I ended up horribly confused as to which version was the 'best', audible solution. And I note that other people have similar difficulties.

DBTs work well with sound snippets with no meaning beyond the set of frequencies used for the test - once they move into the realm of time meaningful content, like music, then all bets are off. That's what this interesting field of ASA makes very clear - the mind quite happily manufactures the content that's not really there, so that the model of what the brain expects to hear next, what's called a schema, is satisfied. In simple terms, the auditory system we all have is constantly deluding us, all the time - we never actually 'hear' the sound waves that are impinging, these are always rearranged internally to suit, that give the best fit. Which makes DBT on music problematic, at the very least ...
 
Last edited:

TBone

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
1,191
Likes
348
how did you reverse dynamic compression?
 

tomelex

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
990
Likes
572
Location
So called Midwest, USA
AJ, my own experiments with DBTs have shown me that either the testing apparatus is not sufficient competent, I'm thinking the Foobar extension here, or that the use with music content is doomed to give poor results - an example of the latter instance is when I did experiments with reversing dynamic decompression some time ago, I ended up horribly confused as to which version was the 'best', audible solution. And I note that other people have similar difficulties.

DBTs work well with sound snippets with no meaning beyond the set of frequencies used for the test - once they move into the realm of time meaningful content, like music, then all bets are off. That's what this interesting field of ASA makes very clear - the mind quite happily manufactures the content that's not really there, so that the model of what the brain expects to hear next, what's called a schema, is satisfied. In simple terms, the auditory system we all have is constantly deluding us, all the time - we never actually 'hear' the sound waves that are impinging, these are always rearranged internally to suit, that give the best fit. Which makes DBT on music problematic, at the very least ...

I would hope we all can agree with much of (not all, there are many folks with perfect pitch etc and acute hearing for real) that by now. However, that should also remind us that when we take away knowledge of the gear(blind testing), we are really getting minimal interference from other parts of our brain, and thus, getting closer to the truth of what we prefer.

PS, click to expand fas42 post to see the bolded I was replying to.
 
Last edited:

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,306
Location
uk, taunton
And where do you fall on the 'limits' spectrum, Mr. Mod?

The two fringe posters are the ones who needed to post 'constructive content' in the first place. Namely, evidence supporting such bollocks claims. One would think that would be the SOP, on a forum that claims to be science-based.

Why are such posts as theirs even allowed, Mr. Mod?
If I were you I would be more concerned about where YOU fit in, within MY limits of acceptable conduct...

The answer to that is very much outside at present so either post something more constructive than this garden variety egotistical posturing or go elsewhere!
 

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,306
Location
uk, taunton

fas42

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Messages
2,818
Likes
191
Location
Australia
how did you reverse dynamic compression?
It was an interesting exercise, purely to investigate how much "damage" could be undone by careful investigation, and tinkering. I tried a couple of audio tools, but found the most effective, useful was the DAW Reaper software - the compression effects tool is very flexible and user friendly, allowing one to apply negative compression at will; the hard bit is knowing what parameters to apply, like the knee level and strength. By trial and error I worked out a usable technique for quickly narrowing down to a window of parameter values to use, and once determined it was simply a case of spitting out the modified track.

This is only going to be successful when there is straightforward compression of the final mix, clips with sophisticated individual compression of the separate tracks won't work of course. But in a couple of pop masterings I applied it to, I was quite pleased with the result - definitely quite superior to the original, and no obvious artifacts.

There is interesting work going on at the moment with "unmixing" sounds with multiple instruments contributing - quite some way to go, but I would imagine that eventually it would be good enough that most material could be picked apart. Then, individually reverse compression, and remix to your heart's content! :cool:
 

krabapple

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Messages
3,197
Likes
3,769
So you're not accomplished in analysing the behaviour of electrical circuits using simulation software, I take it? Do you believe that the behaviour of an audio system is complete invariant to the ears, irrespective of the quality of the electricals involved?

I am accomplished in detecting and dissassembling audiophile nonsense constructs. That's the main skill required on audio forums, though I'm disappointed to see it being required on this one.
 

krabapple

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Messages
3,197
Likes
3,769
Didn't create a forum for someone to just whine about others if that is what you are asking.

Er, no, it's not. I'm asking whether a 'criticism' is an 'opinion'. NorthSky, in the riposte you seemed to find brilliant, suggests they are mutually exclusive. I disagree, don't you?

And do you think fas's 'opinions' about CD audio, and power supplies, being routinely and audibly bad unless one has a 'pristine' setup, and NorthSky's beliefs about the superior 'timing' of vinyl, hold water....scientifically speaking?
 

krabapple

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Messages
3,197
Likes
3,769
Message
Computer Audiophile is undergoing a server upgrade. Sit back, relax, turn up the volume, and click play while we work on the site.

See you in a bit ...

_______

No music for Mr. krabapple, but visiting other audio forums, and do what he does best; criticizing other people negatively, with some insults for a secure dose of superior ego.


But who's being whined about now, Amir?

(psst...cher North...I hardly ever visit, much less post to, CA. You're better off stalking me on hydrogenaudio or AVSF)
 

krabapple

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 15, 2016
Messages
3,197
Likes
3,769
AJ, my own experiments with DBTs have shown me that either the testing apparatus is not sufficiently competent, I'm thinking the Foobar extension here, or that the use with music content is doomed to give poor results - an example of the latter instance is when I did experiments with reversing dynamic decompression some time ago, I ended up horribly confused as to which version was the 'best', audible solution. And I note that other people have similar difficulties.

Of course. ABX software results are inferior to sighted listening; music is no good as a probe signal (!).

I don't recall exactly where these two rank on the List of Usual Audiophile Excuses for Not Doing DBTs, but I'm sure they're on there somewhere. If not I must remember to add them.

(ABX, btw, is not designed for testing *preference*...you're possibly better off with something like ABC/hr)

DBTs work well with sound snippets with no meaning beyond the set of frequencies used for the test - once they move into the realm of time meaningful content, like music, then all bets are off.

Fascinating. Do you think Dr. Toole (whom I've seen championed by Amir quite a bit lately) would be interested in your remarkable recommendation?

His views are nicely laid out here if you need a refresher...or just a nice lecture on audio:

That's what this interesting field of ASA makes very clear - the mind quite happily manufactures the content that's not really there, so that the model of what the brain expects to hear next, what's called a schema, is satisfied. In simple terms, the auditory system we all have is constantly deluding us, all the time - we never actually 'hear' the sound waves that are impinging, these are always rearranged internally to suit, that give the best fit. Which makes DBT on music problematic, at the very least ...

So, you use nonmusical test signals in your DBTs? That's fine, but how do you map your results onto actual music listening? Because , as I'm sure you must know, there are differences that are perfectly ABX-able using test tones, that are quite nicely and utterly masked in actual music listening.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom