Amplifiers with room correction: worth the cost or just a useless tech?

[radix]

I already have a DAC. I'll do some digging on the OpenDRC-DI in the meantime.

Regarding the AVRs, I'll try to get some auditions

BTW, I visited a hifi audio shop - Seven Oaks. The sales dude wasn't very enthusiastic about using an AVR as a stereo amp. I also enquired about the NAD amp with Dirac. He says it's gonna be expensive - around £1400 (NAD 368 with bluesoundnode and DIRAC). In his opinion, Dirac most of the time messes the soundstage up and says "don't expect miracles".
I might try to book an audition tomorrow with Richersound, Sevenoaks and some others.
Let's see how it goes.

AVR amplifiers tend to have more noise than dedicated amps. See various reviews on ASR. But, they are still pretty great and the noise is usually below audible. They just are not super-fantastic like modern dedicated amps. If you have really high sensitivity speakers, maybe it's an issue?

The Denon & marantz that have DRC also have pre-amp out if you want to use external amps. Personally, I've not found it necessary.

hifi / home theater systems have tons of incremental improvements as you add and change pieces. It can be fun and such, but if you are on a budget (1000 GBP I think you said?), you should look at what gives the biggest value. Good speakers, DRC, most any amp/AVR, and a reasonable source. You can look at the amp and AVR reviews here. Any of them that are recommended will have a noise floor below audible.

I think there's a fair number of people on ASR that use an AVR system for combined hifi and ht.

 

[marX]

Mu experience: limit Dirac correction to below 200-500Hz.
Above 200-500Hz (depending on woofer crossover frequency), reflections add a lot to the sound and you dont want Dirac to try and control them.

That seems like a good idea.

Hmm... my primary test of system setup, is a bunch of my favourite stereo recordings.

If the setup can do stereo well - with good soundstage and imaging - then it will do movies with ease.

Installing my new (Dirac) AVR, in March last year, led to an immediate improvement in soundstage and imaging - very noticeable.

Does Dirac mess with aspects of the sound related to soundstage and imaging - ABSOLUTELY!
Does it "mess up" the soundstage and imaging - not in my experience - my subjective response, is that it was a bit like focusing a lens, it brought the music into focus... really very impressive. (My previous Audyssey based AVR never managed that trick!)

I think the sales dude (dud) does not know whereof he speaks.... or if he does, he is well aware that typically AVR's have lower margins (much more competition!) and stereo gear have higher margins (and therefore commissions?).

My AVR is the lowest priced AVR I could find that had both Dirac and a full set of pre-outs (as my speakers are a difficult load, and the onboard amps on most economically priced AVR's don't handle them well - which is why I have power amps).... an Integra DRX 3.4

As an aside the Onkyo NR7100 (and possibly the Pioneer LX305) as sold in Europe, has apparently got pre-outs for front L & R, but not for the other channels.

It is hearing Dirac on stereo setups at several audio shows some years back, that got me interested in it. Although it is mostly used on surround setups now, it definitely can provide the next step up in performance for stereo.

Good luck!

I guess a change of scenery would do the trick. I'll try Richersounds and some others next week (couldn't do it this week). Maybe they would be more receptive.

 

[marX]

AVR amplifiers tend to have more noise than dedicated amps. See various reviews on ASR. But, they are still pretty great and the noise is usually below audible. They just are not super-fantastic like modern dedicated amps. If you have really high sensitivity speakers, maybe it's an issue?

The Denon & marantz that have DRC also have pre-amp out if you want to use external amps. Personally, I've not found it necessary.

hifi / home theater systems have tons of incremental improvements as you add and change pieces. It can be fun and such, but if you are on a budget (1000 GBP I think you said?), you should look at what gives the biggest value. Good speakers, DRC, most any amp/AVR, and a reasonable source. You can look at the amp and AVR reviews here. Any of them that are recommended will have a noise floor below audible.

I think there's a fair number of people on ASR that use an AVR system for combined hifi and ht.

Yeah, budget is my problem.
I wish the Arcam stereo amps would work but when I check them out, I see lots of people have issues with the Dirac and the firmware updates in general with Arcam.

I'll keep my options open (not in a hurry at all).

 

[oldtexasdog]

I use a DBX Driverack PA2. As it is designed for room correction at live venues it might be a little overkill but the price was right. It has done wonders in a bad room for getting rid of real bad echo's and integrating the subs along with making the vocals smooth.
I tried a Mini DSP with Roon and this was a lot better and easier in my opinion.

 

[krabapple]

The problem with hardware based DSP room correction solutions is limited computational power and lack of flexibility. If it has 2048 taps (quite typical for an inexpensive DSP), then it has 1024 taps per channel. At 44.1kHz, this means the resolution for correction is (44100/1024) = 43Hz. If you are correcting only below 200Hz, this means you only have five bins to correct this region. If you don't know, a tap is a delay/coefficient pair.

IIRC Audyssey doesn't use the same taps per channel. Subwoofer gets more.

 

[tinnitus]

If you want to do room correction, do it right the first time. We have three components here: digital, mix and analog.
roomcorrection belongs to the digital level.
here you need a sortware to create the filters (e.g. Acourate from audio vero).
some training time is necessary. Then a convolution software, which folds the filters with the audio signal (camilladsp is very flexible and can also process long filters). Then a DAC in the mix level and in the analog level the amplifier and the speakers. So roomcorrection at the amplifier makes no sense to me.
For the room you still need a microphone and audiointerface.

 

[oldtexasdog]

That's just as the Driverack does. Mic 6 to 9 positions let it do it's thing , name the program and save. leave the Driverack in the chain to keep on doing it's work. So it becomes a permanent part of your chain.

 

[tinnitus]

I started with roomperfect with its automatic correction. But it was not "perfect". Now i am measuring at my MLP (main listening position) and the results a near "perfect". I think that is the goal in home hifi.

 

[marX]

If you want to do room correction, do it right the first time. We have three components here: digital, mix and analog.
roomcorrection belongs to the digital level.
here you need a sortware to create the filters (e.g. Acourate from audio vero).
some training time is necessary. Then a convolution software, which folds the filters with the audio signal (camilladsp is very flexible and can also process long filters). Then a DAC in the mix level and in the analog level the amplifier and the speakers. So roomcorrection at the amplifier makes no sense to me.
For the room you still need a microphone and audiointerface.

I'm concerned about the latency (gaming). Also, Needing a PC to play music and stuff is not great.

An integrated amp could have stuff like Spotify Connect, so I don't have to turn my PC on. I would only need a PC to play games.
That's my thinking at this point.

 

[marX]

I use a DBX Driverack PA2. As it is designed for room correction at live venues it might be a little overkill but the price was right. It has done wonders in a bad room for getting rid of real bad echo's and integrating the subs along with making the vocals smooth.
I tried a Mini DSP with Roon and this was a lot better and easier in my opinion.

Have you noticed any latency with Driverack?

 

[radix]

I'm concerned about the latency (gaming). Also, Needing a PC to play music and stuff is not great.

An integrated amp could have stuff like Spotify Connect, so I don't have to turn my PC on. I would only need a PC to play games.
That's my thinking at this point.

The minidsp DDRC has about 1-2 msec latency, IIRC. From the CamillaDSP tutorial, I think users have reported < 1msec. If you are using a convolver on a PC, I'm, not sure what those would be, but I expect they are about as fast. If you are doing the highest-grade DSP using FIR filters, the latency could be a bit longer, but I don't know the number. I don't think it would be a serious issue with gaming, but I don't have solid numbers to back that up. if you look through the CamillaDSP Tutorial thread, I think people have discussed it.

I agree about the PC issues. I would personally use hardware (minidsp or similar, or an integrated like anthem or nad) or a dedicated Raspberry PI with a ADC/DAC like a Motu M4. I don't like having to use my computer to play stuff either.

If you use a streamer like Moode or Volumio, they have Camilla built in, so anything you stream could have FIR/IIR filters. The issue is if you want analog inputs or other digital inputs, then you really need a preamp of some sort and the DSP stuck between the preamp and the amp (e.g. camillladsp + raspberry Pi + Motu M4, or minidsp).

 

[marX]

Just an update:

I tried Richersounds and like the other dealer (Seven Oaks), he was not very enthusiastic about Dirac live. I tried to force him to have an audition with the Arcam SA30 but he said they ran out of Arcam stuff. So no luck in trying Dirac Live in person.
In his opinion, a front-ported bookshelf or floor-standing speaker along with a competent amp and sound treatment is the way to go.

Then I asked him what are my options in the £1000 range for speaker+amp and he was recommending Dali or Monitor Audio speakers with Rotel A11 tribute or a Marantz network amp.

What do you guys think about Dali? I mean even Danny (GR 'Research') says they are not good (big holes in frequency response if he's to be believed).

BTW they had a Focal Chora 806 on a 50% off deal (the only front-ported speaker they had on sale).

 

[digitalfrost]

What do you guys think about Dali?

Can't speak for their whole lineup but their Spektor line is so bad that I wonder if they can do better. I heard them myself and they were very bright, and then later I saw Amir's review https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ali-spektor-1-review-bookshelf-speaker.25063/ confirming what I heard.

BTW they had a Focal Chora 806 on a 50% off deal (the only front-ported speaker they had on sale).

How much are they? You can get them in europe for 150€/piece or 300€/pair.

 

[marX]

Can't speak for their whole lineup but their Spektor line is so bad that I wonder if they can do better. I heard them myself and they were very bright, and then later I saw Amir's review https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ali-spektor-1-review-bookshelf-speaker.25063/ confirming what I heard.


How much are they? You can get them in europe for 150€/piece or 300€/pair.

IIRC it was £300!

I had no idea about that brand as I was in the Acoustic Energy and Wharfedale camp. So I was like I need time to research when he offered it to me.

 

[marX]

BTW, I was surprised that they did not have any Acoustic Energy stuff as it's a British brand. Their website has it in stock.
I guess its margin is so low that they don't have any incentive in pushing it.

 

[Overseas]

Focal or Triangle should be very good, there are some deals on Focal Aria exiting line.
I have the Rotel A11 Tribute, really like it but it is not something to write home about.

 

[marX]

BTW, I spotted a used Acoustic Energy AE100 mk2 for £130. It's supposed to be a good budget option, right?
Should I go for it?

One issue with this is that I cannot audition the speaker at my place (because it's used).

 

[marX]

BTW, I spotted a used Acoustic Energy AE100 mk2 for £130. It's supposed to be a good budget option, right?
Should I go for it?

One issue with this is that I cannot audition the speaker at my place (because it's used).

I had an eye on this speaker - Triangle Br 3. But it turns out that it's not that great.

Triangle Borea BR03 Review (bookshelf speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Triangle Borea BR03 bookshelf speaker. It was kindly sent to me for testing by a member and costs US $499 on Amazon including Prime shipping. I like the distinctive white face of the BR03 but don't care much for the imitation white oak...

www.audiosciencereview.com

By the way, I searched ebay and hifi store clearance deals and found many Revel speakers. Among their bookshelf line, which one to get?
(The BE line is out of my reach though).

M105?

 

[radix]

By the way, I searched ebay and hifi store clearance deals and found many Revel speakers. Among their bookshelf line, which one to get?
(The BE line is out of my reach though).

M105?

Revel is a good speaker company. There are M105 and M106 reviews on ASR. I have the Revel F228be towers that I really like and get good in-room measurements from.

 

[marX]

Revel is a good speaker company. There are M105 and M106 reviews on ASR. I have the Revel F228be towers that I really like and get good in-room measurements from.

Thanks for the reply.

But it's still confusing
Their models are so close to each other.

There is a shop which sells Revel on Amazon close by. May be I should give it a listen?