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Amplifier for Wharfedale Linton, budget $ 1,300

The trick is to find the sources of subjectivity that you trust, someone who isn't trying to sell you something or justify a past purchase.

Subjectivism is not referenced to a standard. That's one of its biggest problems, just as much as human errancy. Even if you can correlate your reactions to a certain subjectivist in a certain environment, all bets are off when the environment changes, which includes different music, different rooms with different reflective characteristics, different angles (vertical and horizontal) relative to the design axis and different output levels.

And just because people aren't trying to sell you something or justify their purchase doesn't mean that they have either awareness of (or control over) their biases.

Trying to find a way to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear just leads to frustration. Best to rely on tests and measurements. :)

Jim
 
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This is worthless and misleading.
Without precise level matching, the results can be manipulated to be anything that is desired. Not only that, but your comments bias the listeners, "priming" them to hear what you want them to hear. It's an old subjectivist trick called "expectation bias".

Descriptions such as "dry and powerful bass", and comments such as dual mono being better, with "better DAC and better power supply" having audible bearing on the sound are worthless unless they can be shown to be audible in a blind test.

So far, such differences have not been shown to be audible in a controlled blind test if designs are competent.

These are phrases from the Cult of Subjectivism, and they don't do anyone any good ... especially not the OP, who asked for reliable information.

Jim
Do we trust these graphs or they are also fake:

Audiolab 9000

NAD 3050

Cambridge Evo 150

Unfortunatelly I don’t found the exact measurements of the leak 230.

Does Audiolab 9000 measures better than Evo 150 and NAD 3050. Objetively yes.
 
I agree sometimes is pure subjetivism, but usually, what you hear has objetive explanation behind. We tend to use adjetives as shortcuts than explain technical behaviors. There are many specs, not only frequency response or SINAD. I wouldn’t be happier if reviews would compare apples to apples, but usually don’t. And you have to visit a local store to hear the gear you want before buying.
 
Unfortunatelly I don’t found the exact measurements of the leak 230.
OP's first post in this thread referenced:


The Leak Stereo 230 seems like a really nice, good amp.:)
 
Do we trust these graphs or they are also fake:

Audiolab 9000

NAD 3050

Cambridge Evo 150

Unfortunatelly I don’t found the exact measurements of the leak 230.

Does Audiolab 9000 measures better than Evo 150 and NAD 3050. Objetively yes.

Everything that can be heard can be measured. Not everything that can be measured can be heard. IOW, instruments have far finer discrimination than the human senses. :)

Jim
 
OP's first post in this thread referenced:


The Leak Stereo 230 seems like a really nice, good amp.:)
I am very tempted to buy it, especially since it’s sold for $ 1,070 where I live.

As it looks now I will probably buy it, unless I find that the power it can provide is insufficient considering I want to EQ with Dirac. Having a hard time figuring that out as you know :D
If it’s not quite enough I hope the Yamaha A-S701 is in which case that will probably be my pick.

The Hypex/Purifi are interesting propositions, but they quickly get expensive if you want good looks (that’s subjective, all right) and a solid warranty.
 
Don’t be afraid. Leak 230 is a natural choice for the Lintons. Same IAG group, exactly same veneer of wood, Hdmi, good specs and reviews, go for it!

I rarely go hear music at more than 75dB. Neighbours would kill me. You have enough threshold until clipping point, even with EQ.
 
Do we trust these graphs or they are also fake:

Audiolab 9000

NAD 3050

Cambridge Evo 150

Unfortunatelly I don’t found the exact measurements of the leak 230.

Does Audiolab 9000 measures better than Evo 150 and NAD 3050. Objetively yes.
I trust Paul’s measurements in HiFi News.
 
Oops! I see now what @Miniyouuuu meant. I took his question to mean something entirely different. :rolleyes:

Jim
What was supposed to mean? I showed several experiences, reviews, facts and graphs. As a Linton happy owner, I’m trying to help others with all the information I got through my buying experience. I’m not an acoustic engineer, nor a musician, and obviusly some of my experiences have been biased by others, but I don’t censor others with moral superiority.

And that's exactly what you've done repeatedly since my first “subjective” comment. Anything I write has been judged as “biased” “worthless”, “misleading” in bold.

To my point of view, music is waves, but also passion.
 
AVRs are much better value than stereo amps and provide more features and flexibility.
 
AVRs are much better value than stereo amps and provide more features and flexibility.
Actually good PA's are (old good Crown and current Dynacord) and DIY guys know that the best. You won't get a 250 W or more per chenel from AVR and you can easily get a KW or more from a PA in bridged mode while performing more than adequate and better than AVR's.
 
I wonder how long it will take until we suggest every amplifier in existence that costs under $1,300.00? :D
I think it's fun to see lots of different suggestions.:D
I am very tempted to buy it, especially since it’s sold for $ 1,070 where I live.

As it looks now I will probably buy it, unless I find that the power it can provide is insufficient considering I want to EQ with Dirac. Having a hard time figuring that out as you know :D
Regarding Leak 230 and its power together with Linton:
Don’t be afraid. Leak 230 is a natural choice for the Lintons. Same IAG group, exactly same veneer of wood, Hdmi, good specs and reviews, go for it!

I rarely go hear music at more than 75dB. Neighbours would kill me. You have enough threshold until clipping point, even with EQ.
And OP mostly listens at low to medium volume.
 
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Speaking of hearing or not differences between different amplifiers, given the talk about SINAD and amp power in this thread. MAB says in #8 of the thread:

AES and others have conducted properly controlled studies on all sorts of equipment audibility topics. People can't tell the difference. Even amps, my favorite is on page 80:
Cannot tell the difference between a Futterman and a Levenson and a Pioneer receiver.
And to be clear, I have tried it. I was selling these gear in 1987, this did not surprise me since I (and our entire store staff) already had failed to tell the difference between Levinson and Audio Research amps vs. Niles multi-zone amps under blind testing.



I am attaching some pictures from the pdf that MAB refers to, blind testing of amplifiers:
Screenshot_2024-01-03_103422.jpg

Screenshot_2024-01-03_103453.jpgScreenshot_2024-01-03_103500.jpg
 
What was supposed to mean? I showed several experiences, reviews, facts and graphs. As a Linton happy owner, I’m trying to help others with all the information I got through my buying experience. I’m not an acoustic engineer, nor a musician, and obviusly some of my experiences have been biased by others, but I don’t censor others with moral superiority.

And that's exactly what you've done repeatedly since my first “subjective” comment. Anything I write has been judged as “biased” “worthless”, “misleading” in bold.

To my point of view, music is waves, but also passion.

I took your question to mean whether the reviews in question could be trusted to show results that supported your claims. (They do not.) Instead, you were asking whether the reviews in question were scientifically reliable, which they were.

THERE IS NO "MORAL SUPERIORITY" TO THIS MATTER. You have provided anecdotes of differences between amps. Amplifiers that are competently designed are not "punchier", nor do they have "character" or "warmth". These differences were not supported by logic or scientific comparisons. They were, at a minimum, the result of human bias and fallibility. The conclusion is that the differences you purport to hear did not exist, yet you offer them as if they had value.

You say you are trying to help others. These anecdotes are not helpful because thy are not supported by controlled comparisons. That is why they are "worthless" and "misleading". If you want to help others, provide information that is based on science, and is able to be replicated.

"Passion" (another word for "emotion") is not a reason to make statements unsupported by logic or science, nor does "point of view" validate such statements. This site supports clear and logical thinking, not emotion.

No one is censoring you. No member can do that. Only the moderators can do that. You are simply being provided with insight into your mistakes. Please abandon reliance on subjective opinion, and read the links I provided for you regarding 1) cognitive bias, 2) the correct way to determine differences through blind testing, and 3) the ease with which the human brain can be fooled.

In addition to those links, there are more in the Audio Reference Library on this site.

Jim
 
I took your question to mean whether the reviews in question could be trusted to show results that supported your claims. (They do not.) Instead, you were asking whether the reviews in question were scientifically reliable, which they were.

THERE IS NO "MORAL SUPERIORITY" TO THIS MATTER. You have provided anecdotes of differences between amps. Amplifiers that are competently designed are not "punchier", nor do they have "character" or "warmth". These differences were not supported by logic or scientific comparisons. They were, at a minimum, the result of human bias and fallibility. The conclusion is that the differences you purport to hear did not exist, yet you offer them as if they had value.

You say you are trying to help others. These anecdotes are not helpful because thy are not supported by controlled comparisons. That is why they are "worthless" and "misleading". If you want to help others, provide information that is based on science, and is able to be replicated.

"Passion" (another word for "emotion") is not a reason to make statements unsupported by logic or science, nor does "point of view" validate such statements. This site supports clear and logical thinking, not emotion.

No one is censoring you. No member can do that. Only the moderators can do that. You are simply being provided with insight into your mistakes. Please abandon reliance on subjective opinion, and read the links I provided for you regarding 1) cognitive bias, 2) the correct way to determine differences through blind testing, and 3) the ease with which the human brain can be fooled.

In addition to those links, there are more in the Audio Reference Library on this site.

Jim

So, Jim, I like your input on this and coming from an engineering background, I've probably posted many missives just like this in various photography forums - in photography, there area lot of folks also looking for the 'character' of a lens, for example, when in reality the best-measuring, most technically perfect lens adds no 'character' and just delivers the light wavelengths and intensity exactly as received directly to the sensor. Adding 'character' simply means adding optical distortions.

Here's where I've landed, though - there are rare times when the expression of a subjective preference is simply describing an attribute that hasn't had an objective framework built around it yet.

I can give you examples in several areas of this, but what springs to mind regarding the photography analogy is bokeh - there is absolutely no objective way to measure the quality or appeal of bokeh. Believe me, many have tried, some very smart folks have tried and failed with sometimes ridiculous results. Bokeh is tied to the number of aperture blades, but not just that - very many attributes of various aspherical elements in combination with each other affect this, and tweaking a lens for a chromatic aberration for example can fix the CA but make the bokeh seem un-appealing.

So, I have no doubt that it's possible to define and measure this attribute - build a computer model that takes the lens elements in the design, the number pf aperture blades, maximum aperture of the lens and rate it's subjective bokeh appeal at every aperture - but even with decades of computer-modeled, aspherical lens designs bringing incredible optical capability on demand - no manufacturer can magically adjust a rheostat to make bokeh prettier. Yet.

Now, one advantage with photography is you can show bokeh in forums, which you can't do with the audio experience in any real way. With audio subjectivity (from a trusted source who's opinions have matched yours in the past) is still valuable and necessary if used with whatever objective data is available, if any.
 
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With audio subjectivity (from a trusted source who's opinions have matched yours in the past) is still valuable and necessary if used with whatever objective data is available, if any.

Valuable? Perhaps, perhaps not. Necessary? Not at all. I agree that it's nice to have friends, especially friends with whom you have a common interest. But a person who has the insight afforded by logic and disciplined thinking doesn't need the reinforcement provided by friends. Instead of depending on them, they can depend on you. :)

Every day, people all over the world are led willy-nilly, first one way and then another, manipulated by people who know how to influence them. The Scientific Method was created for exactly this situation. It uses discipline and control to provide a person with insight into the true nature of an item or process, rejecting emotions, superstitions and bias. Once a person understands the reasons behind science's methodology, they can apply clear thinking and analytical discipline throughout their lives, independent of any "influencers".

Wouldn't that be a great world? ;)

Jim
 
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