@Amir - One question for you, sir!

[Ducnguyen2k10]

Dear Mr. Amir (@amirm),
I have one question.

I posted your measurement result of EtherRegen switch on one of digital audio fb group, there is this guy, who believe in linear power and audiophile grade switch can make differece in SQ, argued that your method is not enough.

He said sound itself has 4 characteristics, including Frequency, Amplitude, Timbre, Duration. Yet, your measurement method only show Frequency and Amplitude, not enough to judge sound difference that equipment can make. Especially timbre and duration are 2 things distinguish music and noise, guitar and piano…

So what would be your answer for this argument?

 

[Shazb0t]

Dear Mr. Amir (@amirm),
I have one question.

I posted your measurement result of EtherRegen switch on one of digital audio fb group, there is this guy, who believe in linear power and audiophile grade switch can make differece in SQ, argued that your method is not enough.

He said sound itself has 4 characteristics, including Frequency, Amplitude, Timbre, Duration. Yet, your measurement method only show Frequency and Amplitude, not enough to judge sound difference that equipment can make. Especially timbre and duration are 2 things distinguish music and noise, guitar and piano…

So what would be your answer for this argument?

That he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Seriously though, it's going to be nearly impossible to convince someone that off base that they're wrong on a Facebook group. It's probably not worth your effort.

 

[RayDunzl]

Ok...

Made me look.

He said:

"With the measurement of these parameters, is it enough
to confirm that the sound is not different because I found
out that sound has up to 4 characteristics: Frequency (Pitch),
Amplitude (Dynamics), Timbre (Tone Color) ), Duration (Tempo/Rhythm) .

These measurements only show 2 characteristics: Frequency and Amplitude.
These 2 parameters can only be used with Sine wave pulses, but not
enough with sound. The other two characteristics, Timbre (Tone Color)
and Duration (Tempo/Rhythm), show the difference between music and
noise, the difference between a piano and a guitar. ( Reference link on
sound characteristics : https://www.pasco.com/products/guides/sound-waves.... ) .

Therefore, the above measurements are only for reference to the device's
specification and cannot confirm anything."

 

[RayDunzl]

If anything, the EtherRegen makes the stream of zeros and ones more perfectly timed with perhaps more perfect voltages and faster transitions than the "already good enough" version it received from upstream and sends it downstream to a device that doesn't expect perfection in the stream, "good enough" will do just fine thank you.

As for the sine wave output by the downstream DAC and measured for perfection by the analyzer. if the insertion of the EtherRegen doesn't change anything there, it is very unlikely to change anything else it might be regenerating and sending to the DAC.

---

I worked with a different kind of regen on long distance fiber, where regeneration was a necessary evil, as the optical signal would degrade over many miles of fiber between cities and would have to be "regenerated" by turning it back into electrical pulses to fire a new laser to the next regen in the line..

Threw most of those out later as Raman Amplification, actually amplify the laser light as it passes through a special strip of fiber instead of catching and retransmitting it, and adjust the dispersion of the light pulses with another segment of special fiber, and send it another 60 miles or so to the next box down the road/railway. That gave (20 years ago) about 600 miles before a regen was finally needed to recreate the pulses, before the signal finally became not "good enough".

 

[Steve Thomas]

Ducnguyen2k10 said that the sound itself has 4 characteristics but Amir only shows Frequency and Amplitude, not enough to judge sound difference that equipment can make. So is there anybody here prove the rest characteristics by the measurement?

If there are zero people can prove those, maybe his friends are right and you need to check your measurements and declaration.

 

[Jimbob54]

Ducnguyen2k10 said that the sound itself has 4 characteristics but Amir only shows Frequency and Amplitude, not enough to judge sound difference that equipment can make. So is there anybody here prove the rest characteristics by the measurement?

If there are zero people can prove those, maybe his friends are right and you need to check your measurements and declaration.

If they said the moon was made of cheese should we have to build a rocket to go and get a sample?

What they are looking for is time domain measurements. You're not going to get them from Amir as he doesn't have the regen anymore and would also tell you they wouldn't show anything anyway.

Perhaps the maker of the Regen could provide measurements that show it has an impact in the time domain. But I doubt they will.

 

[sergeauckland]

Dear Mr. Amir (@amirm),
I have one question.

I posted your measurement result of EtherRegen switch on one of digital audio fb group, there is this guy, who believe in linear power and audiophile grade switch can make differece in SQ, argued that your method is not enough.

He said sound itself has 4 characteristics, including Frequency, Amplitude, Timbre, Duration. Yet, your measurement method only show Frequency and Amplitude, not enough to judge sound difference that equipment can make. Especially timbre and duration are 2 things distinguish music and noise, guitar and piano…

So what would be your answer for this argument?

Timbre is derived from the frequency response flatness, and duration is just time, so sound only has characteristics of frequency and amplitude. Distortion (both harmonic and intermodulation) are measurements of linearity of amplitude, and a sinewave can completely characterise non-linearity. Noise also is a phenomenon of amplitude and easily measured, both in the presence of a signal and without.

I am heartily fed up of all those hand-wavers who can't get their heads round that conventional measurements DO characterise a signal fully, and there's no 'magic' that the ears can detect and measurements can't.

S.

 

[Steve Thomas]

If they said the moon was made of cheese should we have to build a rocket to go and get a sample?

What they are looking for is time domain measurements. You're not going to get them from Amir as he doesn't have the regen anymore and would also tell you they wouldn't show anything anyway.

Perhaps the maker of the Regen could provide measurements that show it has an impact in the time domain. But I doubt they will.

Maybe you do not understand the question of Ducnguyen2k10. His friends said that the sound itself had 4 characteristics but Amir only show 2. You cannot declare there is no differences when you cannot measure the rest 2 characteristics. The sound from guitar and piano are clearly differences although they are the same about Frequency and Amplitude on the measurement.

Regen declares SQ will be improved but you say no. So you must prove it, not them.

 

[sergeauckland]

Maybe you do not understand the question of Ducnguyen2k10. His friends said that the sound itself had 4 characteristics but Amir only show 2. You cannot declare there is no differences when you cannot measure the rest 2 characteristics. The sound from guitar and piano are clearly differences although they are the same about Frequency and Amplitude on the measurement.

Regen declares SQ will be improved but you say no. So you must prove it, not them.

And I have pointed out why timbre and time have no relevance as timbre is a result of frequency response linearity and amplitude linearity. Time is just time.
S.

 

[Jimbob54]

Regen declares SQ will be improved but you say no. So you must prove it, not them.

There is an awful lot of wrong in what you just posted, but the above is the wrongest of all. The manufacturer makes extraordinary claims as to its performance . It is on them to prove it. If it made audible differences, they would and should be able to provide measurements to show this.

 

[iamsms]

Regen declares SQ will be improved

I have no dog in this race, but it seems Regen should provide proof of their declaration. Either via concrete data from experiments, or through proper blind testing.

 

[JSmith]

Regen declares SQ will be improved

Declares in what way... can you post a link to measurements or controlled listening test results, or do we simply need to believe them?


JSmith

 

[Steve Thomas]

And I have pointed out why timbre and time have no relevance as timbre is a result of frequency response linearity and amplitude linearity. Time is just time.
S.

You still do not explain why the sound from guitar and piano are clearly differences although they have the same measurements.

 

[Jimbob54]

You still do not explain why the sound the sound from guitar and piano are clearly differences although they have the same measurements.

Are you absolutely sure if you analysed the same note on the 2 instruments , they would show the same trace? I don't think they would . at all.

 

[sergeauckland]

You still do not explain why the sound the sound from guitar and piano are clearly differences although they have the same measurements.

No they don't!! They measure completely differently in terms of frequency, harmonic structure, attack and decay. What same measurements?

S.

 

[Steve Thomas]

I am not Regen and I do not want to get bogged down in this disputes

 

[Jimbob54]

I am not Regen and I do not want to get bogged down in this disputes

You picked a funny thread to jump into then .

You have a good day now .

 

[amirm]

He said sound itself has 4 characteristics, including Frequency, Amplitude, Timbre, Duration.

An ethernet switch is not an audio device. It is not capable of producing any of those things. Its job is to convey digital information only that way later gets converted to analog. In that transmission, it can only do one of two things wrong:

1. Send the wrong bits. This simply doesn't happen and if it did, you would know it with interruption of music or static. I have repeatedly shown that home networks are completely reliable on this basis with no data loss.

2. Noise. Such noise has to go from the switch to the streamer and from the streamer to DAC. This path has many filters in it and at any rate, any half decent DAC has extreme immunity to such noise as it exists in other inputs to it (e.g. USB).

Both of the above factors were tested in my measurements. No reduction of noise was observed. Nor was any bit wrong (or you would see massive distortion).

We are not making music here. We are just trying to play it. So what music has in it, is not our concern. It all becomes digital data stored in a server, waiting to be transmitted as digital data. We only worry about transparently playing this stream. If the switch has done anything whatsoever to audio signal as explained above, my measurements would easily show them.

Bottom line, your poster is a plumber thinking your body works the same way and is giving you medical advice! He is not even in the same planet when it comes to understanding what this device in the specific does, and how these systems work in general. Please don't listen to him unless you go to a plumber when there is something wrong with you.

As noted, the company needs to provide such measurements. Despite telling us this would be coming some two years ago, nothing has materialized. So if they can't show any impact to analog output of your sound, then you can be sure none exists. Don't waste money on stuff like this.

 

[charleski]

Amir only show 2. You cannot declare there is no differences when you cannot measure the rest 2 characteristics. The sound from guitar and piano are clearly differences although they are the same about Frequency and Amplitude on the measurement.

The latter 2 'characteristics' are completely described by the first two. Compare a spectrogram of the same note played by a piano and a guitar. Do they look the same? Not at all. But the spectrogram only plots how frequency and amplitude evolve over time. I suggest you learn some basic physics.

Regen declares SQ will be improved but you say no. So you must prove it, not them.

Don't make me laugh. A person making extraordinary claims needs to provide extraordinary evidence. The onus is on them, but of course they have no interest in backing up their wild claims, as they know there are plenty of audiophile suckers out there who'll buy into this nonsense.

 

[voodooless]

Ethernet only provide reliable data transfer (in case of TCP). There is no timing derived from the rate data is received at all. From a local server, chance is high that the file is already loaded in cache memory long before it starts playing (long, in terms of CPU clock ticks). Streaming audio also buffers data. There is a total disconnected between data ingest timing and the audio that eventually comes out. There is a staggering amount of software layers to go though before any sample reaches the DAC: network stack, network file system or stream, possibly local cache on file system, audio decoding, various player subsystems, and eventually into the OS audio subsystem, driver and then eventually the hardware. A lot of these are asynchronous and use a quite a bit of buffering.