• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Am I the only one that enjoys using an obsolete DAT player as their DAC :)

svtcontour

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2022
Messages
81
Likes
99
So over the years where I work, we've gotten rid of DAT players that have wonky tape sections that have failed to be repaired correctly, and I've always picked them out of the recycle pile. I enjoy the retro look and the VU meters. I've got a Panasonic, a Sony and a Fostex. Subjectively they are very similar but if I had to choose one as my favorite in the stack right now, its the Fostex. I also used to have a Denafrips Ares II DAC but for some reason I always felt I liked the music a tad more through these DAT players. I might be crazy but it seems like it was more dynamic and lively. Anyway sold the Ares II. I'm if these DAT players were judged on measurements they'd flop hard but just for enjoyment and music listening, they do the trick just fine!

I'm feeding the DATs via a USB to digital converter (based on some XMOS chipset) and the source is a silent PC running JRiver. Of course i'm limited to a max of 16/48 but I'm totally find with that. My hears cant resolve any higher :)

Anyone else mess around with these as a DAC?

906ab1f6b909b53586c58f29a044bcd2.jpg
 
Last edited:
You might be unique, but now I want to try one.

16/44.1 is fine, and like as not as a DAC it will measure transparent - at least for real world listening. :)
 
So over the years where I work, we've gotten rid of DAT players that have wonky tape sections that have failed to be repaired correctly, and I've always picked them out of the recycle pile. I enjoy the retro look and the VU meters. I've got a Panasonic, a Sony and a Fostex. Subjectively they are very similar but if I had to choose one as my favorite in the stack right now, its the Fostex. I also used to have a Denafrips Ares II DAC but for some reason I always felt I liked the music a tad more through these DAT players. I might be crazy but it seems like it was more dynamic and lively. Anyway sold the Ares II. I'm if these DAT players were judged on measurements they'd flop hard but just for enjoyment and music listening, they do the trick just fine!

I'm feeding the DATs via a USB to digital converter (based on some XMOS chipset) and the source is a silent PC running JRiver. Of course i'm limited to a max of 16/48 but I'm totally find with that. My hears cant resolve any higher :)

Ao anyone else mess around with these as a DAC?

View attachment 425378
Lovely. I used to service car, portable and home DAT players back in the 90s and found them to be a wonderful device and to see you recycling them makes me happy.
 
As you could no resist to buy for 25,- a working TASCAM DA-30. Still works but winding up an down a 120 min tape is a big task he slips. ;)
Thought some years ago i recorded from my Topping DAC D10 using the rca spdif digital out put.
1000001825.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: EJ3
As you could no resist to buy for 25,- a working TASCAM DA-30. Still works but winding up an down a 120 min tape is a big task he slips. ;)
Thought some years ago i recorded from my Topping DAC D10 using the rca spdif digital out put.View attachment 425386
Have you tried running it as a DAC before?
 
If my Google skills do not betray me, these are, top to bottom:
Panasonic SV-3800, 1995 - ADC AK5339, DAC SM5843AS1 + 2x PCM1702, opamps NJM4580 (in), M5238 + NE5532 (out)
Sony PCM-D500, 1997 - ADC CXD8493M, DAC CXD8505BQ, opamps NJM4560 + M5238 (in), NE5532 + NJM4560 (out)
Fostex D-25, 1995 - no clue what's inside, couldn't find a service manual

The Panasonic splits the digital filter and DAC across two boards, that has me slightly concerned about the jitter department. Fundamentally it's a fairly high-performance combo for the time though. The digital filter has very low passband ripple and fairly high passband rejection... it might not like overs much but otherwise is basically perfect. I am not the biggest fan of newer BB multibit DACs like the PCM1702 und 1704, as they can have a rather distinctly measurable negative low-level linearity error that unlike the older PCM63 you can't get rid of by trimming, though a higher chip grade may help.

The Sony's XLR pin 1 wiring is decidedly not AES48 compliant, but neither is it on the Panasonic (par for the course at the time). Both are IEC Class I devices.
The coax digital outputs of both are transformer-coupled but the inputs are not. I would not expect a random USB to SPDIF converter to employ transformer coupling, which may leave your setup vulnerable to degraded performance from ground loops. Either adapt to Toslink (the Panasonic has that as well) or make use of AES/EBU. Given that the Fostex only seems to have AES/EBU, I guess you are using that already?

I don't know much about the Sony's converter chips. Standalone players often seem to follow the CXD8505 up with external 1-bit DACs so its performance on the analog side may not be high-end, but the output stage is decidedly more fancy than that of a lowly CDP-XE800 with the same chip (which is much more basic with far higher resistor values and lowly AD712 opamps), so there's that.
(BTW, one of the main killers of SONY DATs seems to be bad/leaking surface mount electrolytics on the head amplifier board. Probably the #1 source of trouble on any SONY device from the '80s and '90s that uses them.)

I would assume that all of them should be capable of performance exceeding their specifications, assuming you don't get in trouble with ground loops between the DAT and your amp and the more than 25-year-old electrolytics are behaving themselves. The mid-'90s weren't the digital stone ages after all. With some shaped dither in the source, a dynamic range of around 100 dB(A) would not be unexpected. (The spec is usually for A/D + D/A in series and tends to be dominated by ADC noise.) That's getting close to what a pure line-level source for domestic playback realistically needs (my rule of thumb being 103ish), including some headroom for EQ. You can most definitely live with that. You will need a volume control in the following analog stages, as always the case at the time. (If you wonder where the progress went, these days you can buy a DAC that will smoke a decent preamp from the '80s or '90s, and it won't be terribly expensive either.)

Here are some measurements from a Sony PCM-R300, which appears quite similar to the R500 in the converter department but with consumer I/O options only:
Looks like the DAC will actually accept >16 bits (and give 4 dB more dynamic range for a total of 97.4 dB), which at the time would generally mean either 18 or 20 bits actually being used. So with 24-bit samples there would actually be truncation going on, but most any real-life music material would contain so much noise as to provide enough dithering by itself, generally even with a bit of digital attenuation... white noise at -102 dBFS ought to be plenty for 18 bits, or -114 dBFS for 20 bits. It doesn't look like is any plugin for custom bit depth dither for JRiver if you were to insist... "mda Dither" for Foobar2000 can do it.
 
Last edited:
I love my Sony DATs, but they don't get much use. Just part of my large Sony ES collection now.

Micro surgery is always required on the RF head amps due to leaky SMD caps and sometimes the damage is too extensive.

I've got 3xDTC55ES, a DTC-57ES, a TCD-D7 and an R-300? (I think- it's in the storeroom bought as working for parts)

The 55 and 57 are essentially NIB (both with rebuilt head amps and brake pads). The 55ES I bought brand new as soon as it was available in Australia back in the day.

Here they are, hiding in a pile of Sony...
IMG_4454.jpg
 
I love my Sony DATs, but they don't get much use. Just part of my large Sony ES collection now.

Micro surgery is always required on the RF head amps due to leaky SMD caps and sometimes the damage is too extensive.

I've got 3xDTC55ES, a DTC-57ES, a TCD-D7 and an R-300? (I think- it's in the storeroom bought as working for parts)

The 55 and 57 are essentially NIB (both with rebuilt head amps and brake pads). The 55ES I bought brand new as soon as it was available in Australia back in the day.

Here they are, hiding in a pile of Sony...
View attachment 425452
It's unfortunate that the SMD caps for years from Sony in camcorders, DATs and other devices failed and made a mess of those fine PCBs. I replaced a buttload of those caps too. When I was servicing DATs I had a Aiwa in for service and what a nightmare it was. A bazillion levers each with a spring or two that was calibrated for each lever of which there was dozens of them. A bloody nightmare. Sony gear is just so much better that way.
 
Yes.

(I spent many years recording with DAT recorders. DAT is not something I would like to revisit.)
 
Yes.

(I spent many years recording with DAT recorders. DAT is not something I would like to revisit.)
Being a professional with so much experience I am curious why you don't want to revisit DAT?
 
I love my Sony DATs, but they don't get much use. Just part of my large Sony ES collection now.

Micro surgery is always required on the RF head amps due to leaky SMD caps and sometimes the damage is too extensive.

I've got 3xDTC55ES, a DTC-57ES, a TCD-D7 and an R-300? (I think- it's in the storeroom bought as working for parts)

The 55 and 57 are essentially NIB (both with rebuilt head amps and brake pads). The 55ES I bought brand new as soon as it was available in Australia back in the day.

Here they are, hiding in a pile of Sony...
View attachment 425452
Oh thats pretty awesome - but why not try to use it as a DAC rather than a DAT. I find mine to sound phenomenal. I prever all my DAT players over my previous Ares II DAC which I sold and slightly more than my Soncoz SGD1. They are of course limited for bitrate but sound quality wise they seem great! :)
 
If my Google skills do not betray me, these are, top to bottom:
Panasonic SV-3800, 1995 - ADC AK5339, DAC SM5843AS1 + 2x PCM1702, opamps NJM4580 (in), M5238 + NE5532 (out)
Sony PCM-D500, 1997 - ADC CXD8493M, DAC CXD8505BQ, opamps NJM4560 + M5238 (in), NE5532 + NJM4560 (out)
Fostex D-25, 1995 - no clue what's inside, couldn't find a service manual

The Panasonic splits the digital filter and DAC across two boards, that has me slightly concerned about the jitter department. Fundamentally it's a fairly high-performance combo for the time though. The digital filter has very low passband ripple and fairly high passband rejection... it might not like overs much but otherwise is basically perfect. I am not the biggest fan of newer BB multibit DACs like the PCM1702 und 1704, as they can have a rather distinctly measurable negative low-level linearity error that unlike the older PCM63 you can't get rid of by trimming, though a higher chip grade may help.

The Sony's XLR pin 1 wiring is decidedly not AES48 compliant, but neither is it on the Panasonic (par for the course at the time). Both are IEC Class I devices.
The coax digital outputs of both are transformer-coupled but the inputs are not. I would not expect a random USB to SPDIF converter to employ transformer coupling, which may leave your setup vulnerable to degraded performance from ground loops. Either adapt to Toslink (the Panasonic has that as well) or make use of AES/EBU. Given that the Fostex only seems to have AES/EBU, I guess you are using that already?

I don't know much about the Sony's converter chips. Standalone players often seem to follow the CXD8505 up with external 1-bit DACs so its performance on the analog side may not be high-end, but the output stage is decidedly more fancy than that of a lowly CDP-XE800 with the same chip (which is much more basic with far higher resistor values and lowly AD712 opamps), so there's that.
(BTW, one of the main killers of SONY DATs seems to be bad/leaking surface mount electrolytics on the head amplifier board. Probably the #1 source of trouble on any SONY device from the '80s and '90s that uses them.)

I would assume that all of them should be capable of performance exceeding their specifications, assuming you don't get in trouble with ground loops between the DAT and your amp and the more than 25-year-old electrolytics are behaving themselves. The mid-'90s weren't the digital stone ages after all. With some shaped dither in the source, a dynamic range of around 100 dB(A) would not be unexpected. (The spec is usually for A/D + D/A in series and tends to be dominated by ADC noise.) That's getting close to what a pure line-level source for domestic playback realistically needs (my rule of thumb being 103ish), including some headroom for EQ. You can most definitely live with that. You will need a volume control in the following analog stages, as always the case at the time. (If you wonder where the progress went, these days you can buy a DAC that will smoke a decent preamp from the '80s or '90s, and it won't be terribly expensive either.)

Here are some measurements from a Sony PCM-R300, which appears quite similar to the R500 in the converter department but with consumer I/O options only:
Looks like the DAC will actually accept >16 bits (and give 4 dB more dynamic range for a total of 97.4 dB), which at the time would generally mean either 18 or 20 bits actually being used. So with 24-bit samples there would actually be truncation going on, but most any real-life music material would contain so much noise as to provide enough dithering by itself, generally even with a bit of digital attenuation... white noise at -102 dBFS ought to be plenty for 18 bits, or -114 dBFS for 20 bits. It doesn't look like is any plugin for custom bit depth dither for JRiver if you were to insist... "mda Dither" for Foobar2000 can do it.
OMG that is awesome information. I'm keeping everything you wrote as bible for this gear :) As for the Sony in my collection, it was indeed having some sort of head issue so it was landed in the pile as a result. Well they all had some sort of head related issue I guess. I think the Fostex kept jamming no matter how many times we got it repaired.

In terms of subjective sound quality which is hard to do because they are all very good. I have to say I like the Fostex first, then the Panasonic and last the Sony, though they are not far apart and any of them honestly could be my digital converter for life :)
 
Being a professional with so much experience I am curious why you don't want to revisit DAT?

Fair question.

I guess it’s just that I am very happy with the way technology progress in terms of how I do my job.

I actually was grateful when DAT appeared, since up till then I was working with analogue tape (Nagra recorders etc) .

So DAT was actually something of a mercy when it arrived.

But it was still dealing with the limitations of tape. And there were still a lot of hassle in the process back then in terms of Getting the sound off the DATs, inconvenient access to specific recordings, etc. Basically tape in general is something I am happy to have in the past.

(Though I am still disappointed that digital field recorders haven’t evolved to be more convenient than they actually are. The software and UI remains pretty clunky IMO.
And in fact, my iPhone often serves as a quicker and easier field recorder for sounds in which top level sound quality is not a priority)
 
(Though I am still disappointed that digital field recorders haven’t evolved to be more convenient than they actually are. The software and UI remains pretty clunky IMO.

Do you know of one with a sensible UI that offers genuine line level in/outs, high grade internal mic preamps, along with really low noise front ends? And one that doesn't require pressing buttons which click enough to be heard on the recording? Oh, and run from normal batteries, not Li-ion.
 
Do you know of one with a sensible UI that offers genuine line level in/outs, high grade internal mic preamps, along with really low noise front ends? And one that doesn't require pressing buttons which click enough to be heard on the recording? Oh, and run from normal batteries, not Li-ion.

No!

(Sigh…)
 
Do you know of one with a sensible UI that offers genuine line level in/outs, high grade internal mic preamps, along with really low noise front ends? And one that doesn't require pressing buttons which click enough to be heard on the recording? Oh, and run from normal batteries, not Li-ion.
Have you checked out
?

"Batteries" most definitely means multiple sets of good rechargeables in this case (or lithium primaries), as power hunger is quite comparable to what we used to see with digital cameras and even the MixPre 3 only seems to run for 2-3 hours with phantom power on. Lots of people seem to be using external USB powerbanks to extend nonstop runtime.
 
Do you know of one with a sensible UI that offers genuine line level in/outs, high grade internal mic preamps, along with really low noise front ends? And one that doesn't require pressing buttons which click enough to be heard on the recording? Oh, and run from normal batteries, not Li-ion.
There was only one DAT recorder I had that ran off of batteries. I've got two handheld digital recorders that run off batteries, one has line level inputs, phantom power and a lower noise front end than anything I plug into it. But if one wants a recorder with a sensible UI, line level in/outs, high grade internal mic preamps and lots of inputs/channels, modern mixing boards have all of that, but not with battery power. That would be a mighty big ask. If one wants truly serious recording, these can do the job. Modern mixing boards record to SD chips, frequently have over 12 microphone amps with phantom power. I'm talking about typical mixers for bands and small venues, not fancy high-end models. This indicates just how obsolete DAT recorders are.

R.jpg
 
Last edited:
Have you tried running it as a DAC before?
Don't think so the recording i did went over the rca spdif so i heard the Topping dac. I did compared with the Philips CD630 with 1541A dac i barly could hear a difference between them. However will try to use it as a dac out of Curiosity ;)
 
Last edited:
I went from a Revox R2R to a StellaDAT which no longer works, I think I wiped the EPROM with the control programme on it by leaving the battery on as it went flat.

I then got a Pioneer D-C88 which I still use to play back my recordings.
If I was less lazy I would transfer the DAT recordings to files.
I posted their pictures in the Audiophile jewellery thread.
I would very much like to get a re-programmed EPROM for the Stella but they have been out of production for decades and I have lost touch with the only other person I knew with one.
 
Back
Top Bottom