Alternative SINAD Chart for AVRs and Processors Showing Best Performance Voltage

[Dj7675]

In the Denon X4700 review thread a user kept stating the Denon X4700 was trash because it has a SINAD in the 70s at 2v. The X3600 and X4700, because they have the amp disconnect feature are able to show a higher SINAD on the chart because they have this feature. However, other units do not and are stuck with the often times low SINAD result showing at 2V even the though often times they have very good performance at a different voltages.
Would it be a good idea to display the SINAD on a chart showing the units highest SINAD and at what voltage that is?

A few other thoughts
-I understand the master SInad chart is at 2V/4V (I think there are some exceptions), and that seems to make sense so all products are rated at the same output
-Many people simply look at the SINAD chart and get an incomplete picture of the device which may perform much better under normal use, or for their intended use
-Would it be possible to show both the 2V performance and the best SINAD (and voltage used) on the same chart?
-Many AVRs seem to perform best in the 1-1.4 volt range. Many HT multichannel amps are also in that range (Outlaw, Emotiva, Monoprice Monolith). Having the SINAD in a chart showing best SINAD and at what voltage would be very helpful for people as they shop for receivers and matching them with amps to get the best performance.
-One of the complaints I sometimes hear about ASR receiver reviews is that the 2V test does not reflect real use levels and there is some truth to that. For example, the Denon X3500 looks to be a terrible device on the AVR SINAD chart. But at 1.2v actually has a SINAD of 96.
- @amirm has gone the extra mile on these AVR reviews and now includes a great chart showing at what voltage the unit performs best at. It seems it might be a good idea to start using this data and display it somewhere on the existing SINAD chart, or on a separate chart
Is this a good idea or not?

 

[Gedeon]

I only can agree with you.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...l-is-a-2v-4v-measure-for-an-avr-preout.11686/

 

[peng]

In the Denon X4700 review thread a user kept stating the Denon X4700 was trash because it has a SINAD in the 70s at 2v. The X3600 and X4700, because they have the amp disconnect feature are able to show a higher SINAD on the chart because they have this feature. However, other units do not and are stuck with the often times low SINAD result showing at 2V even the though often times they have very good performance at a different voltages.
Would it be a good idea to display the SINAD on a chart showing the units highest SINAD and at what voltage that is?

A few other thoughts
-I understand the master SInad chart is at 2V/4V (I think there are some exceptions), and that seems to make sense so all products are rated at the same output
-Many people simply look at the SINAD chart and get an incomplete picture of the device which may perform much better under normal use, or for their intended use
-Would it be possible to show both the 2V performance and the best SINAD (and voltage used) on the same chart?
-Many AVRs seem to perform best in the 1-1.4 volt range. Many HT multichannel amps are also in that range (Outlaw, Emotiva, Monoprice Monolith). Having the SINAD in a chart showing best SINAD and at what voltage would be very helpful for people as they shop for receivers and matching them with amps to get the best performance.
-One of the complaints I sometimes hear about ASR receiver reviews is that the 2V test does not reflect real use levels and there is some truth to that. For example, the Denon X3500 looks to be a terrible device on the AVR SINAD chart. But at 1.2v actually has a SINAD of 96.
- @amirm has gone the extra mile on these AVR reviews and now includes a great chart showing at what voltage the unit performs best at. It seems it might be a good idea to start using this data and display it somewhere on the existing SINAD chart, or on a separate chart
Is this a good idea or not?

In addition, I alerted Amir of the potentially misleading chart that is not 100% consistent, though probably 95% consistent, in terms of even just the SINAD at the voltage measured. That is mostly because of the unbalanced vs balanced thing, so any update or upgrade on the chart should equalize the test output voltage, that is 2 V for unbalance and 4 V for balanced. I think Amir is too busy now to worry such "housekeeping" type of work. There is a lot of work to review/measure an AVR for the obvious reason and he has been measured so many in the last couple months.

That SINAD vs pre-out voltage is extremely good and useful especially if he extend it to 3.5 or 4V unbalance, 7 or 8 V for balanced, but I don't know how you can integrate it with that simple SINAD ranking chart.

 

[Dj7675]

I wish I had experience with charts and graphs to come up with a meaningful chart for home theater AVRs and Processors. So many people get the wrong idea about just looking at the SINAD chart for home theater units in real world use. People that are browsing look at the performance chart at 2V and see the performance of 60-80 SINAD and assume they are terrible. While that is pretty terrible performance at 2V, most consumers will use be using the internal amps and performance is fine (90-96 SINAD). On many of these units Amir has the data at other voltages but I still believe it is important to display either a 1V performance, or a “best” performance voltage along side the 2V as it currently is. For example the X3500 and x3600 really aren’t far apart in SINAD With the amps connected. Or the NAD T758 at 1V is around a SINAD of 89. Anyone care to take a crack at this if we could compile the values best we could?

 

[peng]

I wish I had experience with charts and graphs to come up with a meaningful chart for home theater AVRs and Processors. So many people get the wrong idea about just looking at the SINAD chart for home theater units in real world use. People that are browsing look at the performance chart at 2V and see the performance of 60-80 SINAD and assume they are terrible. While that is pretty terrible performance at 2V, most consumers will use be using the internal amps and performance is fine (90-96 SINAD). On many of these units Amir has the data at other voltages but I still believe it is important to display either a 1V performance, or a “best” performance voltage along side the 2V as it currently is. For example the X3500 and x3600 really aren’t far apart in SINAD With the amps connected. Or the NAD T758 at 1V is around a SINAD of 89. Anyone care to take a crack at this if we could compile the values best we could?

I started something like that to include the important measurements such as imd, 32 tones, SNR, DR, 5W, Max W SINADs etc., but it is time consuming to tabulate so much data so it is still work in progress.

If I do one for HDMI input SINAD, I can get it done much quicker.

 

[amirm]

-Would it be possible to show both the 2V performance and the best SINAD (and voltage used) on the same chart?

I did this for a while but people complained that it was unfair so I took them out.

 

[Dj7675]

I did this for a while but people complained that it was unfair so I took them out.

More info is always better on the main chart (I'm just thinking for home theater). So many of these devices just don't perform well at 2v/4v (even they should) but if would tell you a lot on receivers in particular where users would be using just the internal amps, or would pick up one of the common external amps for home theater that require just 1-1.5 to drive them fully. Within these limits they do ok to pretty good. So many people that visit (here and on AVS etc) look the main chart and assume terrible performance but some may actually be fine under more normal use or paired with a better matching amp. Some of these units aren't very good at any level but it would help create a better picture of performance if a lower output was also included (whether best, or 1V). I can't imagine the time you have put into measuring AVRs and Processors and I wouldn't want to add anything unnecessary to what you are doing, but I think there is some value to showing more info on the SINAD chart FWIW.

 

[pozz]

Much of this data, excluding voltage levels, can already be found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_DAC_Performance_Index/ SINAD, SNR and power have all been captured for various input/output combinations. It is still a work in progress and will need a lot more before it is finished, so you won't be able to look up every single device and metric (in fact I think it's limited to SINAD at the moment). For SINAD, I can add voltage so that each device will show (input/output/voltage).

Hopefully members and nonmembers will consider it the main repository, and be more clear on the measured results.

 

[Dj7675]

Much of this data, excluding voltage levels, can already be found here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_DAC_Performance_Index/ SINAD, SNR and power have all been captured for various input/output combinations. It is still a work in progress and will need a lot more before it is finished, so you won't be able to look up every single device and metric (in fact I think it's limited to SINAD at the moment). For SINAD, I can add voltage so that each device will show (input/output/voltage).

Hopefully members and nonmembers will consider it the main repository, and be more clear on the measured results.

That is really great work. Yes if you could add voltage(s) that would be perfect. You can simply filter out the receivers/processors and the the various sinad values. As an example the x3500 would have 2... SINAD of 73 at 2V and 96 at 1.2V. Really great work. Once the various devices are up to date, you might consider posting in each new review like @MZKM does for preference rating or @edechamps does for the loudspeaker tool. It is very cool to be able to sort and compare the various receivers and processors. If you get time to add the missing AVRs/Processors let me know and I will be sure to refer people to it. It could be a very valuable tool to show SINAD at different levels.

 

[amirm]

One thing I can do is to create a second SINAD chart at another voltage we agree with. Then I can post them in real-time as I do the review.

 

[pozz]

That is really great work. Yes if you could add voltage(s) that would be perfect. You can simply filter out the receivers/processors and the the various sinad values. As an example the x3500 would have 2... SINAD of 73 at 2V and 96 at 1.2V. Really great work. Once the various devices are up to date, you might consider posting in each new review like @MZKM does for preference rating or @edechamps does for the loudspeaker tool. It is very cool to be able to sort and compare the various receivers and processors. If you get time to add the missing AVRs/Processors let me know and I will be sure to refer people to it. It could be a very valuable tool to show SINAD at different levels.

Ok but it will be at least a month before you will see it updated. Currently we're in the middle of an overhaul. We can add another slider filter for voltage but note that I will limit data entry only to results which have an associated AP dashboard. I won't eyeball voltage and SINAD in graphs and post approximations.

 

[Dj7675]

One thing I can do is to create a second SINAD chart at another voltage we agree with. Then I can post them in real-time as I do the review.

That would be very helpful. I do really like the chart you now include which shows how it performs at different levels. Seems like 1 or 1.2V would make sense but whatever would seem to make sense that would be a useable number... low enough not to drive internal amps to clipping... What do you think would be a value that would make sense?

 

[Dj7675]

Ok but it will be at least a month before you will see it updated. Currently we're in the middle of an overhaul. We can add another slider filter for voltage but note that I will limit data entry only to results which have an associated AP dashboard. I won't eyeball voltage and SINAD in graphs and post approximations.

Great. Really look forward to it. Should really be useful. Thanks for putting the time into it.

 

[Vasr]

Seems to be the main problem is not voltage spec per se but a more general issue of comparing apples and apples in any relative ranking chart. The real decision is what should be in a comparison chart and what information is there in the rest of the review. Here are my suggestions and rationale.

Note that most of these can be done as post processing after the review, not necessarily as part of the review itself except for the measurement for the main function of the unit. The main thing is to compare apples and apples in any published chart.

Right now the charts are hard to use for me if I am looking for a good unit for the function I have in mind since I have to look up each one in the list to see if it does the function I need. Lots of Apples and Oranges and Bananas mixed up.

An AVR is almost never used just as a DAC and yet in these reviews its perception is overly influenced by its DAC performance. It should never be included in a chart with DACs. The DAC performance data for the AVR will be there in the review if someone needs it but that is not its defining function.

An AVR can be used as a pre/pro by a non-trivial segment of its customer base. This implies that it should conform to some standards of output not its best output arbitrarily chosen by the manufacturer. Otherwise, it puts too much burden on the customer to figure out whether a particular AVR will work or not with their amp. The chart measuring a digital/analog input to pre-out should be included in a chart of pre-amps and processors that handle at least some basic codecs with digital inputs (HDMI and Optical) not DACs that can only take PCM or have no source-switching or volume functions. This chart will be useful for those looking for a pre/pro or those that want to evaluate an AVR for also its potential as pre/pro now or later. For this just a standardized 2v unbalanced and 4v balanced is fine. The data for lower voltages will be there in the details of the review but should not be part of any relative ranking to keep things consistent for comparison.

An AVR is of course used mostly with its internal amps. Here the performance from a source input to speaker output is the main criterion and this is correctly done now with a separate chart for AVRs. But this chart should be at the top of the review as the defining chat for the AVR. This would include any integrated amp as long as it can do some processing. It doesn't make sense to put an analog-only integrated amp in this chart.

Finally, you would have a separate comparison chart for pure amps and integrated amps (including AVRs if they can be used as power amps in direct mode or as integrated amps with line in).

Summary: Charts maintained for comparison and units added to the most relevant charts (the review can only have one or two ranking charts for the main functions with full charts generated offline preferably automatically and maintained elsewhere). I think there enough samples of each to make the charts meaningful.

DAC chart: For all units designed for use as DACs as their main function
Integrated amp: Pre-amp+Power amp in same unit with no codec processing only
Pre amp: Pre-amp with no codec processing and no power amp (included integrated amps but amp performance not used in this chart)
Pre/Pro: Pre amp with Codec processing in the same unit (includes AVRS but the amp performance is not considered here)
Power Amp: Pure power amps (but including amp performances of integrated and AVRs as long as they can be used as power amps)
AVR: Units that have the full stack here ordered based on end-end performance.

 

[amirm]

An AVR is almost never used just as a DAC and yet in these reviews its perception is overly influenced by its DAC performance.

Why? I use it as a 2.0 system for music all the time.

 

[amirm]

Seems like 1 or 1.2V would make sense but whatever would seem to make sense that would be a useable number... low enough not to drive internal amps to clipping... What do you think would be a value that would make sense?

I don't know. Someone has to survey 40 or 50 amps to figure out an average that makes sense to use.

 

[peng]

In my opinion, 2V RCA, 4V XLR is a good standard to keep. Beyond that I would suggest 1.5 V or 1.6 V would be a good number because a lot of the affordable power amps such as the Monolith 200WX, ATI, Anthem MCA, Emotiva and Outlaw's all have amps rated around 200 to 250 W and their input sensitivities are in the range of 1.4 V to 1.6 V.

For AVR internal amp users who own AVRs that don't have preamp mode, they will see some degradation going from 1.4-1.6 V to 2 V and will therefore know what to expect if they connect the LCR (or just the C channel for AVRs that allow the LR power amps to be disconnected) pre outs to external amps.

If no external amps are used, the user's focus should be the power amp output performance anyway, and that would be the 5 W, Max. W and the associated SINAD vs Output graphs.

 

[pozz]

The simplest would be, 2V single-ended, 4V balanced and whatever's best IMO.

Otherwise, it's like @amirm said, someone should look at the input sensitivities of a large number of amps and plot or average the results.

 

[Dj7675]

In my opinion, 2V RCA, 4V XLR is a good standard to keep. Beyond that I would suggest 1.5 V or 1.6 V would be a good number because a lot of the affordable power amps such as the Monolith 200WX, ATI, Anthem MCA, Emotiva and Outlaw's all have amps rated around 200 to 250 W and their input sensitivities are in the range of 1.4 V to 1.6 V.

For AVR internal amp users who own AVRs that don't have preamp mode, they will see some degradation going from 1.4-1.6 V to 2 V and will therefore know what to expect if they connect the LCR (or just the C channel for AVRs that allow the LR power amps to be disconnected) pre outs to external amps.

If no external amps are used, the user's focus should be the power amp output performance anyway, and that would be the 5 W, Max. W and the associated SINAD vs Output graphs.

I think the 1.4-1.6 does make sense to test based on common amps out there that people tend to use.
However, it doesn’t address AVR SINAD performance when using just the internal amps which I think should be a consideration. Seeing a low SINAD on an AVR because it is tested at a higher voltage that its internal amps can do seem to portray them inaccurately. For example (sorry to keep bringing it up) the Denon’s can go to -0 or -0.5 on the master volume which gets us reference level. For the 95% (wild guess) of users that don’t need to use external amps, this seems to be one of the most important things to show in a chart. The biggest example is people looking at the main AVR/Processor chart and assuming they perform poorly as a stand alone unit When in fact they may not. This same thing could happen at another level that is too high for the AVR’s internal amps.
Just a thought

 

[Dj7675]

The simplest would be, 2V single-ended, 4V balanced and whatever's best IMO.

Otherwise, it's like @amirm said, someone should look at the input sensitivities of a large number of amps and plot or average the results.

This makes sense to me FWIW