Alec Baldwin shooting: Lawyer suggests potential sabotage on ‘Rust’ set.

[amirm]

Prosecutor who resigned from Alec Baldwin 'Rust' case says she wanted dismissal

Erlinda Ocampo Johnson said she believed in the manslaughter case against Alec Baldwin, but that withheld evidence meant the case should be dismissed.

www.nbcnews.com

Meant to post an interview with her earlier:

She is a defense attorney that was hired as a special prosecutor in April of this year. She is neck and shoulders above the regular prosecutor. Spoke extremely well and conducted herself just as well. She was an excellent match to the defense. I watched the regular prosecutor during the Armorer trial and it was routinely hard to follow what she was getting at, taking 5 times as long to make a point. She also always had this sleepy look to her. So bringing this new prosecutor was a great move.

Her ethics in this regard, likely because she has been a defense attorney, is to be commended. We need more of her in our judicial system and legislator....

 

[Doodski]

“Deliberately”.

I know personally of two instances of someone accidentally pulling the trigger. A hair trigger does not pull itself, even if the gun is dropped.

I must agree on this one. I've seen a 22 caliber on Sunday plinking days where a operator(s) shot into the ground accidentally.

 

[JSmith]

Arizona Legislature

The case was brought under the involuntary manslaughter section (Arizona doesn't have this distinguishment) in New Mexico;

HB0464

2023 New Mexico Statutes :: Chapter 30 - Criminal Offenses :: Article 2 - Homicide :: Section 30-2-3 - Manslaughter.

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

B. Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.

Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony.

JSmith

 

[Duke]

The case was brought under the involuntary manslaughter section (Arizona doesn't have this distinguishment) in New Mexico;

HB0464

2023 New Mexico Statutes :: Chapter 30 - Criminal Offenses :: Article 2 - Homicide :: Section 30-2-3 - Manslaughter.

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

JSmith

Oops. Thanks.

 

[amirm]

As a an aside, these 45 caliber bullets are larger than I had thought! Didn't have a sense for them until they put some on the table on the last day. No wonder it went through one person, came out, and hit the producer behind her.

 

[Blumlein 88]

As a an aside, these 45 caliber bullets are larger than I had thought! Didn't have a sense for them until they put some on the table on the last day. No wonder it went through one person, came out, and hit the producer behind her.

Yes 45 long Colts were large caliber, heavy bullets. Originally used with black powder in the large brass cartridge. With modern smokeless powder it takes much less powder to equal those old black powder loads. They also were a round nose (some pics look almost like a flat nose) shape. So they have deep penetration if they aren't expanding hollow point which in the pictures it appears they were not.

It is a bit deceptive however. A 45 ACP used in a .45 automatic pistol is the same size bullet, but cartridge and all is only about 70% as large while being equally powerful. This is because the .45 ACP used modern smokeless powder.

 

[Doodski]

They also were a round nose (some pics look almost like a flat nose) shape.

Good for penetration through brush, trees and bones.

 

[Petrushka]

So it says nothing about pointing a gun. Nothing.

That is implied by lack of caution and circumspection. That is why we have trials and juries. To decide such things.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

That is implied by lack of caution and circumspection. That is why we have trials and juries. To decide such things.

The criteria is “due caution”
The protocols are the “due caution” because they have a proven track record for working. The armorer and the first AD violated the protocols. Grossly violated them. Alec Baldwin did not. He was handed a gun that was declared safe. Actors have aimed and pulled the triggers on guns that were declared safe for nearly forty years now on movie sets without incident. So there was no violation of due caution on the part of Alec Baldwin.

 

[Petrushka]

The criteria is “due caution”
The protocols are the “due caution” because they have a proven track record for working. The armorer and the first AD violated the protocols. Grossly violated them. Alec Baldwin did not. He was handed a gun that was declared safe. Actors have aimed and pulled the triggers on guns that were declared safe for nearly forty years now on movie sets without incident. So there was no violation of due caution on the part of Alec Baldwin.

Your view is that the protocols are fine. I would say that they are deficient. Baldwin, as a producer, could have prevented live ammunition on the set. That is where the chain of caution was broken..

I think we will find that my notion of appropriate protocols will be adopted, if they haven’t been already.

If there is ever a movie production that absolutely requires live ammunition, I think you will find that there will be no casual handling of it.

 

[Petrushka]

I will restate my opinion of the protocols in a different way.

The rules for gun handling that several people have posted are sufficient to prevent accidental shootings. They are redundant. If you follow even one of the three, no one gets hurt.

If I were writing protocols for movie sets, I would insist that at least two people witness the loading of a gun with blanks or inert cartridges, and both should be qualified to distinguish them from real. This is not onerous.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Your view is that the protocols are fine. I would say that they are deficient.

It’s not my view. The protocols were created by the unions and producers with the consultation of multiple experts and a great deal of careful consideration of the work done on set. The track record of safety supports the conclusions reached in those negotiations. The protocols have worked

Baldwin, as a producer, could have prevented live ammunition on the set.

Clearly you do not understand what film producers do nor specifically what a “producer” like Alec Baldwin does. Nevermind the fact that actual line producers rarely get involved directly in day to day on set operations, a producer like Alec Baldwin is only involved in getting a movie deal made and does not operate as an actual hands on line producer.

Your assertion is indicative of a fundamental lack of knowledge on how movies are made and why you lack the expertise that was instrumental in forming the protocols that have worked successfully for nearly forty years

That is where the chain of caution was broken..

Wrong. This was on the armorer and the first AD. It couldn’t be more clear. Alec Baldwin was handed a gun that was declared safe and Alec Baldwin and the rest of the on set crew acted accordingly. And this is something that has worked for nearly four decades on American film sets with a perfect safety record. Clearly the safety record of the protocols you believe in “cardinal rules for private gun owners” is quite inferior with approximately 30,000 accidental gun deaths in the same span of time.

I think we will find that my notion of appropriate protocols will be adopted, if they haven’t been already.

They haven’t and we won’t. And I’ll field any bets on this one

If there is ever a movie production that absolutely requires live ammunition, I think you will find that there will be no casual handling of it.

The protocols don’t allow for live ammunition on working sets. The protocols work when followed.

People are stupid. Some so stupid that they manage to find a way to make a great system fail. There is nothing we can do to avoid extreme cases of stupidity or negligence. Humans will always be involved in these kinds of processes.

People die every day in hospitals because of accidental wrong medications or wrong dosages. People die every day because of incompetent designs or repairs made by auto manufacturers or mechanics. The list goes on and on

Accidental death is the #4 cause of death in America and #1 among kids. With hindsight everyone of them could have been prevented. The only reasonable way to assess the effectiveness of safety protocols is to look at the record as a whole and not just isolate one incident and ignore everything else. On set gun safety is not on any lists for leading causes of death.

The difference is it makes headlines.

 

[Groove01]

Your view is that the protocols are fine. I would say that they are deficient. Baldwin, as a producer, could have prevented live ammunition on the set.

You win:

Cables absolutely do make a difference b/c “I” can hear a difference- prove me wrong.

- my hearing is more sensitive then your equipment
- the test can’t account for the nuances of the human ear
- measurements can’t replicate how humans interpret sound

@Justdafactsmaam - you have made a valiant effort sir. You can lead folks to water, but…..LOL

 

[Petrushka]

It’s not my view. The protocols were created by the unions and producers with the consultation of multiple experts and a great deal of careful consideration of the work done on set. The track record of safety supports the conclusions reached in those negotiations. The protocols have worked



Clearly you do not understand what film producers do nor specifically what a “producer” like Alec Baldwin does. Nevermind the fact that actual line producers rarely get involved directly in day to day on set operations, a producer like Alec Baldwin is only involved in getting a movie deal made and does not operate as an actual hands on line producer.

Your assertion is indicative of a fundamental lack of knowledge on how movies are made and why you lack the expertise that was instrumental in forming the protocols that have worked successfully for nearly forty years

Wrong. This was on the armorer and the first AD. It couldn’t be more clear. Alec Baldwin was handed a gun that was declared safe and Alec Baldwin and the rest of the on set crew acted accordingly. And this is something that has worked for nearly four decades on American film sets with a perfect safety record. Clearly the safety record of the protocols you believe in “cardinal rules for private gun owners” is quite inferior with approximately 30,000 accidental gun deaths in the same span of time.

They haven’t and we won’t. And I’ll field any bets on this one

The protocols don’t allow for live ammunition on working sets. The protocols work when followed.

People are stupid. Some so stupid that they manage to find a way to make a great system fail. There is nothing we can do to avoid extreme cases of stupidity or negligence. Humans will always be involved in these kinds of processes.

People die every day in hospitals because of accidental wrong medications or wrong dosages. People die every day because of incompetent designs or repairs made by auto manufacturers or mechanics. The list goes on and on

Accidental death is the #4 cause of death in America and #1 among kids. With hindsight everyone of them could have been prevented. The only reasonable way to assess the effectiveness of safety protocols is to look at the record as a whole and not just isolate one incident and ignore everything else. On set gun safety is not on any lists for leading causes of death.

The difference is it makes headlines.

The protocols don’t allow for live ammunition

You win:

Cables absolutely do make a difference b/c “I” can hear a difference- prove me wrong.

- my hearing is more sensitive then your equipment
- the test can’t account for the nuances of the human ear
- measurements can’t replicate how humans interpret sound

@Justdafactsmaam - you have made a valiant effort sir. You can lead folks to water, but…..LOL

Baldwin on the Twilight Zone set as producer, with the children: “This is fine. I was told it is safe.”

The point: the person who handed you the gun and told you it is safe is the same person who knowingly violated a fundamental safety protocol, and you know about it.

 

[Sal1950]

The point: the person who handed you the gun and told you it is safe is the same person who knowingly violated a fundamental safety protocol, and you know about it.

Firstly we're dealing with a movie making situation where the very first rule of weapon handling is broken hundreds of time a day, a weapon is pointed directly at another person and fired..
If this must be the case, a couple of common sense rules should be in place to protect everyone involved.
ABSOLUTELY NO LIVE AMMO anywhere on a filming set.
All weapons anywhere on the set (except for law enforcement personal) should have the barrels blocked to make them incapable of launching a projectile.
These two actions would only seem common sense actions taken going forward. It's already been well proven that anything less is unacceptable.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

My Oh My! Clint is being very uncareful here.
A gun is always loaded - never point a gun at anyone - use a gun with blocked chamber always . . .
Well he said bollocks to all of that.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Firstly we're dealing with a movie making situation where the very first rule of weapon handling is broken hundreds of time a day, a weapon is pointed directly at another person and fired..
If this must be the case, a couple of common sense rules should be in place to protect everyone involved.
ABSOLUTELY NO LIVE AMMO anywhere on a filming set.

Already a rule

All weapons anywhere on the set (except for law enforcement personal) should have the barrels blocked to make them incapable of launching a projectile.

Then they don’t work

These two actions would only seem common sense actions taken going forward. It's already been well proven that anything less is unacceptable.

Wrong. Again the safety record for on set gun use is nothing less than stellar

 

[Bob from Florida]

Whether you are an Alec Baldwin "fanboy" or think Bad Karma missed its chance with Baldwin - one person is dead and another injured during this incident.
Curiously, Baldwin co-wrote the story with the individual that survived the shooting. Had the video been shown purporting horseplay involving Baldwin and guns on the set... It would have been interesting to see how the jury would have voted.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Baldwin on the Twilight Zone set as producer, with the children: “This is fine. I was told it is safe.”

You still don’t know what a producer does and you double down on that with an absurdity.
By the way, you might want to do some research on that tragic accident that took three lives on the set of The Twilight Zone. Five people including director John Landis were acquitted of manslaughter charges. It was determined that the physical effects person was at fault. And it was an accident. No producers were ever even indicted.

The point: the person who handed you the gun and told you it is safe is the same person who knowingly violated a fundamental safety protocol, and you know about it.

So you blame Alec Baldwin for not properly using his psychic abilities. OK…..

 

[Petrushka]

Already a rule

Then they don’t work

Wrong. Again the safety record for on set gun use is nothing less than stellar

Then I suggest that a crime was committed by having live ammo on set, that lots of people knew about it, that several people quit after observing safety violations, that nothing was done to clean up the set and account for live ammo, and that everyone knew about the unsafe practices. Including Baldwin.

Which to me, makes it appropriate to have a trial, where the issue of recklessness can be subject to testimony under oath.

I suspect there will be trials, or settlements.