7.1.4 setup, Genelec vs KEF

[Vacceo]

BTW after some time listening to music in Atmos on a proper setup, I really have hard time coming back to stereo with the same albums. Not all of them sound better this way, but many do. It's all the hi-fi people wants from speakers but it's impossible to do otherwise. All the talk about speakers disappearing, tall sound, envelopment, width, depth is there without any tricks, all at once. Lack of destructive mastering is probably one of the biggest factors outside of more sound sources. I wouldn't ignore top or any channels for music listening. Interestingly the center channel is usually almost unused in music, quite the opposite with the movies.

If you have the channels, why not using them?

With this budget and a dedicated room I would plan to build every speaker, the tv and everything else in wall since the room acoustics become much more important in this price category compared with the quality differences of the speakers.

A design like the blade is only really worth the money if you can place the speaker fare away from every object and every wall. In a multi channel set-up according to your plan even the center speaker only will interfere with the waves from the left and right speaker, so it is very likely that you can't really get the advantage of such a speaker in a multi channel room.

If you build an in wall set-up it will most likely sound much better since you can avoid almost all sources of early diffractions even if the speaker on it's own aren't as good as a kef blade.

I do not know what are Kal Rubinson uses for his multichannel setup, if he uses it for films and so on, but he has built a multichannel system with the Blades as the basis, so he may actually tell us a thing or two about it.

 

[Pearljam5000]

KEF coaxial driver vs Genelec coaxial driver
Which is better ?
In any case I'd chose Genelec .
I'd always prefer a pro audio company vs hifi company .
Reliability is guaranteed .
No need for DACs and amps and expensive cables Like you do with passives .
Crossover should be better too Becaue it's active (I assume )

 

[Vacceo]

Shameless plug, by the way, to request KEF the capacity to go multichannel and add Dirac to their LS active series. Yes, with LSX for height speakers.

If they even made CD players that could be controlled by the APP, even better.

 

[test1223]

I do not know what are Kal Rubinson uses for his multichannel setup, if he uses it for films and so on, but he has built a multichannel system with the Blades as the basis, so he may actually tell us a thing or two about it.

The problem is the room which is about 5.2m x 5.2m (17ft) (if it is a square), so you have about 2.5m (8.2ft) max listening distance if you choose a circle and place some speakers directly at the wall. So there isn't enough space to place the speakers free in the room.

There is a very good placement recommendation from kef for the blade https://international.kef.com/pages/product-support#hifi-speakers_blade
and the minimal recommendations couldn't be meet.

From my experience you can't hear a lot of small differences of similar speakers when there isn't enough free space and you got to many early reflections. For these scenarios it is most of the time a wast of money to buy the best of the best because you will not hear the smaller differences anyway and a good speaker which is made for this scenario will sound much better anyways.

 

[Keksstein]

Interesting, I really thought in wall / flush mounting is done to boost the LF (= getting higher SPL) mainly.

Genelec seems to have a solution for everything, the 1238A AC & DF could work in my room for the 7 Chanel layer. For Atmos its impossible of course. Price is not so much higher as far as I know compared to the Ones. I just thought it will be a downgrade in performance to boost SPL.
I need to say I also like the flush mount look:

https://garrett.pt/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/top_final-3-720x380.jpg

The acoustic company building this room is mainly planing recording studios, they have experience with such things. The budget for the room acoustics is high enough to create such a solution. (I hope)

So you think, Genelec Main Monitor Flush mounted will be a better experience than the Ones or the Blade Setup? (both in a well acoustically treated room)

The recommendation for the Blade in the Manual, they see them in a living environment. Sure if you place them close to a wall, there will be nasty reflections which could kill the stereo image and give some bass boost. In my room, the early reflections will be handled by some Absorbers on the right space, also the surrounding of the Blade will be a LF Absorber. Because of that I thought it will be fine. There is a typo I made, room is not 27qm big, its around 25,7qm. (5,3 x 4,85) By placing them on the 5.3m side, the distance to the side wall will be fine. if I bring them closer to the listening position it could also work: (TV left)

Reliability for all solutions is not really an issue but passive speakers are having a little benefit here. Only thing that can really break them is overpowering, I'm really sure I will not do that.
There are great active and passive speakers, if the development is done correctly, I wouldnt prefer either.

Best regards,
Jan

 

[holdingpants01]

Interesting, I really thought in wall / flush mounting is done to boost the LF (= getting higher SPL) mainly.

Genelec seems to have a solution for everything, the 1238A AC & DF could work in my room for the 7 Chanel layer.

You can flush mount 8351 and 8341, they have kits for that. 1238A have 5dB more noise than 8xx1 series, so they could be too noisy for you, especially with 7 of them aiming at you at not so big distance and quiet room

 

[Keksstein]

You can flush mount 8351 and 8341, they have kits for that. 1238A have 5dB more noise than 8xx1 series, so they could be too noisy for you, especially with 7 of them aiming at you at not so big distance and quiet room

For the rear a really good option, for the front speaker the 8351A will be a little bit weak I guess. Genelec recommends mixing them.

 

[Pearljam5000]

I'd save up a little more and get the 8381 and be a set for life

 

[Keksstein]

I'd save up a little more and get the 8381 and be a set for life

In the past I had compact speakers (Cabasse Bora) paired with an 700W/ch PA Amp. Everytime I switched the unit on I expected the speaker to blow up... and my Ears too. No joke, the 8381 scares me, specially for short distances. Of course I would love to hear them.

 

[IamJF]

What a cool project!
Do you know these guys? I got my screen from them, VERY good work (and way heavier as I thought ) https://www.takeoffmedia.de/
When planing a home cinema in your price range these are the first people I would call, they know their stuff.

Screen - a real screen + beamer has so many benefits over a TV. And to be honest - cinema feeling starts with a 3m wide screen . You only can position your speakers right with an acoustic transparent screen. Hide your bass array and the speakers to give the room a clean look. Get A LOT of absorption behind the screen.
I'm a sound guy so these count way more as the blackest black for me. And a huge black surface is also not really beneficial for a nice look in the room ...

That's the cinema corner of my living room - not finished yet. All speakers developed myself and active with Hypex modules.

This is the screen: https://www.takeoffmedia24.de/hollywood-screens-imasque-manual#wizard-step-0

To your questions.
Putting the speakers in the wall is for sure beneficial! Putting them on the wall with absorption around (soft soffit) is also great - the SBIR/ lambda/4 resonance is dampened completely when absorption is as deep as the speaker. This would be easier with the Genelecs.

I would also use the Genelecs in your situation. Really like The Ones, great concept, very welll done. And Genelec Software will help with setup.
You could also think about the new Neumanns with DSP - just upgraded to KH120ii for my mobile listening and am impressed what they are able to deliver. Not sure if KH150 would be loud enough for you - but this is a neat system with 3x KH150 at the front and the rest KH120ii. Also digital inputs and they sound not far from a coax with their controlled vertical dispersion. I also have LS50 in my office and did a lot of comparisons with KH120 and KH80.

How many seat rows do you have? A 7.1.2 can be beneficial over 7.1.4! For one seating row I would build 7.1.2 but use the same speakers for rear and ceiling. Also use absorption around the ceiling speakers like soft soffit - best just make a complete acoustic ceiling in that depht. In combination with a transparent screen you already will have a lot of control in your room.

Keep us updated how the project goes!

 

[Keksstein]

Do you know these guys? I got my screen from them, VERY good work (and way heavier as I thought ) https://www.takeoffmedia.de/
When planing a home cinema in your price range these are the first people I would call, they know their stuff.

Yes, I know them, I life in the Stuttgart area and would need ~10 Minutes with the car to reach them. The acoustic concept they use makes sense to me, only thing I dont like much is their Speakers. They use B&W, Swans and Monitor Audio Speakers, for their “highend” stuff they build the speakers by themselves. Even if they get the frequency response flat on axis, these are some basic speaker cabinets, no comparison to the pro stuff in my opinion.

Need to say, I really like the look of your front wall, the wood panels make a huge difference compared to the “classic” black cinema walls. Aren't optical reflections from the projector an issue? Need to think about it, perhaps I should really go this way and use a bigger cinema screen. It should easily be possible to place the projector in another room to avoid hearing it, there is just a drywall in the back of the room. (to make it symmetrical)

I really think of combining the Genelec main monitors (Like 1238DF or A) and the Ones (8341A) + flush mount kit to get the benefits from in wall mounting like “test1223” mentioned. This would also be the recommendation from Genelec, I've already read their informations about this topic.

I (kind of) know Neumann speakers. My first real loudspeaker was the predecessor of the KH310, the Klein + Hummel O300. Room was unsymmetrical and had a terrible resonance in the deep bass area, despite it this speaker gave me goosebumps. It will be my nearfiled desktop setup soon. For my project the only reason I wasn't thinking of using Neumann speakers is that I can integrate Genelecs easier because they offer much more different speakers. On the other side, 7 KH420 (which can be flush mounted at the front wall and back wall) and 4 KH120 + Trinnov Altitude 16 or Storm ISP Elite + 4 KH750 Subwoofers would cost little bit less than the Genelec setup. Listening distances are minimum ~1,5m wich is OK for the KH420. Not so easy

There will be no cinema seats since I want to play video games in this room with keyboard and mouse, the best solution in my opinion is a couch for two persons.

Sure I will let you know which solution I have chosen, project will start in the summer next year.

Best regards,
Jan

 

[Vacceo]

Jan, I just realized that there is yet another coaxial option you can consider as in this forum, we have the very person behind the speakers: Thorbjørn Sigberg. This gentleman is Norwegian and you can order the speakers directly at his webpage.

Sigberg systems follow a slightly different philosophy. Thorbjørn argues that what matters is having a full range final sound, and that is archived by a combination of booshelves and subwoofers. These are active speakers, so adjusting time delay, frequency and so can be extremelly tight (just like Genelec) with the advantage of a smaller footprint.

Limitations? Well, Sigberg does not currently produce a center channel nor height speakers (even though you could hung the speakers from the cealing, but...).

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Dream, endgame setup.

Research Trinnov , their PrePro goes way beyond simple speakers re-mapping. They have a level of Bass management that is as good at it gets... and their support is legendary. They'' work with you...
I am also partial to Neumann ... But either Neumann or Genelec or Kef ... great system but for subwoofers, I would not advise to go toward , Genelec or Neumann or Kef. You can do much , much better with other (better?), yet, less expensive subwoofers; with something like Trinnov, you have a superlative tool to integrate them... Think of what this complement of speakers (Genelec, Kef or Neumann) well integrated with at least 3 High output 18 inches subwoofers such as the Rythmik FV18 Direct Servo subwoofer...



Peace.

 

[test1223]

Yes, I know them, I life in the Stuttgart area and would need ~10 Minutes with the car to reach them. The acoustic concept they use makes sense to me, only thing I dont like much is their Speakers. They use B&W, Swans and Monitor Audio Speakers, for their “highend” stuff they build the speakers by themselves. Even if they get the frequency response flat on axis, these are some basic speaker cabinets, no comparison to the pro stuff in my opinion.

Need to say, I really like the look of your front wall, the wood panels make a huge difference compared to the “classic” black cinema walls. Aren't optical reflections from the projector an issue? Need to think about it, perhaps I should really go this way and use a bigger cinema screen. It should easily be possible to place the projector in another room to avoid hearing it, there is just a drywall in the back of the room. (to make it symmetrical)

I really think of combining the Genelec main monitors (Like 1238DF or A) and the Ones (8341A) + flush mount kit to get the benefits from in wall mounting like “test1223” mentioned. This would also be the recommendation from Genelec, I've already read their informations about this topic.

I (kind of) know Neumann speakers. My first real loudspeaker was the predecessor of the KH310, the Klein + Hummel O300. Room was unsymmetrical and had a terrible resonance in the deep bass area, despite it this speaker gave me goosebumps. It will be my nearfiled desktop setup soon. For my project the only reason I wasn't thinking of using Neumann speakers is that I can integrate Genelecs easier because they offer much more different speakers. On the other side, 7 KH420 (which can be flush mounted at the front wall and back wall) and 4 KH120 + Trinnov Altitude 16 or Storm ISP Elite + 4 KH750 Subwoofers would cost little bit less than the Genelec setup. Listening distances are minimum ~1,5m wich is OK for the KH420. Not so easy

There will be no cinema seats since I want to play video games in this room with keyboard and mouse, the best solution in my opinion is a couch for two persons.

Sure I will let you know which solution I have chosen, project will start in the summer next year.

Best regards,
Jan

I would highly recommend to visit some installations to get an impression in which direction you want to go (wide directivity and low amount of absorption to increase envelopment or narrow di and high absorption to get a very precise image ...). There are plenty decision where there is no best solution but only a different solution.

There is nothing wrong with B&W, Monitor Audio and Swans. All have some very good speakers even if some parts aren't perfect without eq, this doesn't matter in the end for you since you will use an equalizer. Some strong parts of these speakers like low intermodulation distortion of most B&W speakers might be exactly what you like.

I would also recommend to consider smaller companies which have some experience with 3D audio setups like ME Geithain, Wisdom or ksd audio.
E.g. something like this might be interesting https://ksd-audio.de/immersiv/ (German).

 

[juliangst]

Do you know these guys? I got my screen from them, VERY good work (and way heavier as I thought ) https://www.takeoffmedia.de/

I've watched all their videos in last few months. Really nice state of the art setups but their starting price of 60K for a home theatre isn't cheap either.

For a home theatre setup of the OP's budget I would do the following:
-Front baffle wall with KEF or Perlisten in wall speakers
-4 to 6 subwoofer bass array with something like Dayton Ultimax 12 or 15
-KEF or Perlisten in walls for surround and surround backs (can also be built into acoustic absorbers if in wall installation is not possible)
-a large ceiling absorber with build in atmos speakers
-Storm AVR with Dirac ART, multichannel hypex amps for speakers and crown amps for the subs.

Genelecs are nice too but I wouldn't want to run power and signal to every speaker and get an expensive AES module to use their AES inputs to avoid A/D conversion. The KEF Ci series also has really good performance for its price compared to the rather expensive (and output limited) Genelecs.

 

[Keksstein]

Sigberg systems follow a slightly different philosophy. Thorbjørn argues that what matters is having a full range final sound, and that is archived by a combination of booshelves and subwoofers. These are active speakers, so adjusting time delay, frequency and so can be extremelly tight (just like Genelec) with the advantage of a smaller footprint.

This is of course a very good way to get the room under control, placing a full range speaker in the room is not very easy. I'm reading in a german home/pro recording community since many years, its really surprising how much effort (and space) they need to use to get even small speakers under control. If I compare this to the home cinema enthusiasts, they are using subwoofer arrays for everything under ~80Hz, often achieving much better FR and avoid resonances in the room.

Research Trinnov , their PrePro goes way beyond simple speakers re-mapping. They have a level of Bass management that is as good at it gets... and their support is legendary. They'' work with you...
I am also partial to Neumann ... But either Neumann or Genelec or Kef ... great system but for subwoofers, I would not advise to go toward , Genelec or Neumann or Kef. You can do much , much better with other (better?), yet, less expensive subwoofers; with something like Trinnov, you have a superlative tool to integrate them... Think of what this complement of speakers (Genelec, Kef or Neumann) well integrated with at least 3 High output 18 inches subwoofers such as the Rythmik FV18 Direct Servo subwoofer...

I guess my starting point when I was creating this topic was kind of wrong, every good enough speaker will do the trick if the room is build well.

There is nothing wrong with B&W, Monitor Audio and Swans. All have some very good speakers even if some parts aren't perfect without eq, this doesn't matter in the end for you since you will use an equalizer. Some strong parts of these speakers like low intermodulation distortion of most B&W speakers might be exactly what you like.

I would also recommend to consider smaller companies which have some experience with 3D audio setups like ME Geithain, Wisdom or ksd audio.
E.g. something like this might be interesting https://ksd-audio.de/immersiv/ (German).

I really dont know how good the in wall speakers B&W offers are, the normal home speakers are more like design objects than good speakers in my opinion. Sure, THD, intermodulation and even FR are good in some models, the separated tweeter kills the performance. In room response will be different in every room, compared to Genelec or KEF they are still in the stone ange. (in my opinion)

There is a company in Munich, they have Genelec, Neumann, KSD, PSI, Grimm, Dutch & Dutch, Adam... for comparison. This would be my starting point for the decision.

I've watched all their videos in last few months. Really nice state of the art setups but their starting price of 60K for a home theatre isn't cheap either.

For a home theatre setup of the OP's budget I would do the following:
-Front baffle wall with KEF or Perlisten in wall speakers
-4 to 6 subwoofer bass array with something like Dayton Ultimax 12 or 15
-KEF or Perlisten in walls for surround and surround backs (can also be built into acoustic absorbers if in wall installation is not possible)
-a large ceiling absorber with build in atmos speakers
-Storm AVR with Dirac ART, multichannel hypex amps for speakers and crown amps for the subs.

Genelecs are nice too but I wouldn't want to run power and signal to every speaker and get an expensive AES module to use their AES inputs to avoid A/D conversion. The KEF Ci series also has really good performance for its price compared to the rather expensive (and output limited) Genelecs.

Yes I have also seen most of their videos. The most points Lars Mette is talking about are absolutely true like interaction between room and speakers. If they would still have KEF in their product range, I would really love to get my room planed by them. And yes, 60.000€ is much money. But they will also build your cinema and do all the planing for you. If you calculate how much the single components will cost you, the price seems to be OK.

The KEF in wall reference speakers are incredibly expensive, 11.000€ for the front speaker, 8.000€ for Rear. They will sound incredible for sure, this would be a nice setup if I would use the reference front combined with their “old” in wall designs.

Best regards,
Jan

 

[juliangst]

Yes I have also seen most of their videos. The most points Lars Mette is talking about are absolutely true like interaction between room and speakers. If they would still have KEF in their product range, I would really love to get my room planed by them. And yes, 60.000€ is much money. But they will also build your cinema and do all the planing for you. If you calculate how much the single components will cost you, the price seems to be OK.

The KEF in wall reference speakers are incredibly expensive, 11.000€ for the front speaker, 8.000€ for Rear. They will sound incredible for sure, this would be a nice setup if I would use the reference front combined with their “old” in wall designs.

Best regards,
Jan

I’m sure for the money they ask you can chose whatever speakers you want.
Just because they don’t have KEF on their website doesn’t mean they won’t build a theatre with kefs if you want so.

KEF in wall reference is really expensive but non reference Ci series also measures pretty well.
Perlisten could be another good alternative and already has build in back boxes.

 

[Keksstein]

I’m sure for the money they ask you can chose whatever speakers you want.
Just because they don’t have KEF on their website doesn’t mean they won’t build a theatre with kefs if you want so.

KEF in wall reference is really expensive but non reference Ci series also measures pretty well.
Perlisten could be another good alternative and already has build in back boxes.

It seems like they want to sell their self made speakers, in a video they explain that they only plan your room if they can choose the components they want to use. They had KEF in their older setups, I guess I could ask. I have already written to a company close the place where I life, they plan home cinemas, listening rooms and recording Studios mainly. (the owner is a home cinema enthusiast an is well known in german home cinema communities) They will use any speaker you tell them but they sell for example B&W KEF and Focal speakers, Trinnov and Marantz Electronics. So they have experience, I'm really curious what they will recommend in my room.

Do you have a source where the in wall KEFs have been measured?

Best regards,
Jan

 

[juliangst]

It seems like they want to sell their self made speakers, in a video they explain that they only plan your room if they can choose the components they want to use. They had KEF in their older setups, I guess I could ask. I have already written to a company close the place where I life, they plan home cinemas, listening rooms and recording Studios mainly. (the owner is a home cinema enthusiast an is well known in german home cinema communities) They will use any speaker you tell them but they sell for example B&W KEF and Focal speakers, Trinnov and Marantz Electronics. So they have experience, I'm really curious what they will recommend in my room.

Do you have a source where the in wall KEFs have been measured?

Best regards,
Jan

I‘m pretty sure their speakers are not bad but I wouldn’t buy any speaker without seeing the spinorama first.

Erin measured the smaller Kef Ci:

Kef Ci3160RL-THX In-Wall Speaker Review

Kef Ci3160RL-THX Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[IamJF]

Yes, I know them, I life in the Stuttgart area and would need ~10 Minutes with the car to reach them. The acoustic concept they use makes sense to me, only thing I dont like much is their Speakers. They use B&W, Swans and Monitor Audio Speakers, for their “highend” stuff they build the speakers by themselves. Even if they get the frequency response flat on axis, these are some basic speaker cabinets, no comparison to the pro stuff in my opinion.

They use great components for their speakers but not sure about the implementation. And I'm more in the Bliesma camp instead of Accuton. If you are interested in custom speakers you can drop a message. But Genelecs will for sure have a better resale value

Need to say, I really like the look of your front wall, the wood panels make a huge difference compared to the “classic” black cinema walls. Aren't optical reflections from the projector an issue? Need to think about it, perhaps I should really go this way and use a bigger cinema screen. It should easily be possible to place the projector in another room to avoid hearing it, there is just a drywall in the back of the room. (to make it symmetrical)

That sounds as pretty good conditions!
I'm not THAT picky about picture quality, actually use a (good) LED beamer but far from a real cinema beamer. The whole room is still pretty white but the wood panels help a lot and have actually a lot of black surface. To get a picture closer to a TV you need a black room. To watch in a not perfect room you choose a projector with a little more lightpower but not so perfect at blacks - for me that's fine.
For gaming - you have to talk to the professionals. Not sure how good actual projectors are for that! But one thing IS for sure - it must be an incredible experience to do that with a 3m screen ad the sound setup you plan!

I really think of combining the Genelec main monitors (Like 1238DF or A) and the Ones (8341A) + flush mount kit to get the benefits from in wall mounting like “test1223” mentioned. This would also be the recommendation from Genelec, I've already read their informations about this topic.

I (kind of) know Neumann speakers. My first real loudspeaker was the predecessor of the KH310, the Klein + Hummel O300. Room was unsymmetrical and had a terrible resonance in the deep bass area, despite it this speaker gave me goosebumps. It will be my nearfiled desktop setup soon. For my project the only reason I wasn't thinking of using Neumann speakers is that I can integrate Genelecs easier because they offer much more different speakers. On the other side, 7 KH420 (which can be flush mounted at the front wall and back wall) and 4 KH120 + Trinnov Altitude 16 or Storm ISP Elite + 4 KH750 Subwoofers would cost little bit less than the Genelec setup. Listening distances are minimum ~1,5m wich is OK for the KH420. Not so easy

I'm not sure if you don't overestimat the SPL level you can take - KH420s as rears would be pretty brutal. Listen to what really comes out of rear speakers during a film ... it's not a lot compared to the front. I'm sure you could get away with a bunch of KH150s or KH120ii for rear and ceiling.
I still would build subwoofers myself and tailored to your room! Cheaper and hard to beat in quality, esp with arrays. KH750 is a great sounding subwoofer but can not do wonders at 20Hz, it's a closed 10".

There will be no cinema seats since I want to play video games in this room with keyboard and mouse, the best solution in my opinion is a couch for two persons.

Then think about 2 ceiling speakers! There is a good video from Lars about that. Absolutely most films only send 2 ceiling channels, they don't code for 4 speakers. With 2 speakers sending the same signal you have interferences. It's needed with bigger audiences but I will stick with 2 for sure (also a couch).

Sure I will let you know which solution I have chosen, project will start in the summer next year.

That's a good timeframe for serious planing.