$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[srrxr71]

How about using 4 subwoofers?

Yes you can and it would be good. But if you think about it 2 x w371 is sort of 4 woofers in acoustically different places. Admittedly the optimization is for the listening chair and not the whole room.

 

[squarewave]

You describe exactly where I was headed until I realized better to bite the bullet and just get the w371s. I would have had everything you said exactly (uncanny) plus 2 7360 sitting near the mains.

For reasons discussed in this thread. Better to just go for the w371 instead.

Nice that we think the same . Pretty long thread to read through and I might miss what you are refering to anyway , but I think the 7380A's should not be ruled out. The W371 will look a bit odd in a living room environment I think. 8361A's that are not on top of W371's can be placed lower. (Good for couch listening. Yeah I know that W371's can be placed to the side of 8361A's, but that will be a pretty big footprint.) Also moving the 8361A's away from the back wall could avoid cancellations: https://www.genelec.com/monitor-placement

 

[srrxr71]

Nice that we think the same . Pretty long thread to read through and I might miss what you are refering to anyway , but I think the 7380A's should not be ruled out. The W371 will look a bit odd in a living room environment I think. 8361A's that are not on top of W371's can be placed lower. (Good for couch listening.) Also moving the 8361A's away from the back wall could avoid cancellations: https://www.genelec.com/monitor-placement

Don’t care about looks. The road I was on I would have spent almost the same as 2 x w371 and not gotten the full benefits of the w371.

I know what is end game and I should have just gone that way instead of ordering one sub at a time. I would have been 2 x 10” plus 1 x 15”. Now I would have 2 x 12” plus 2 x 14”.

Plenty of bass according to Genelec support. Plus all the cool tricks and modes offered by woofer cal.

I would have literally paid the same but missed all the new technology and capabilities.

For a one person listening situation this is best. That 2L room told me everything I need to know. If it’s good enough for them it’s good enough for me.

 

[benanders]

Can you write something more?

Okay, something more (grin).

I think some important things about the the OP’s goal are unaddressed / unknown and that limits the value of respondents’ work put into this [very good] thread.

Is the OP planning not to move again? Not my business nor that of any other responder, but in suggesting he/she put 4-5 figure$ into room acoustical analyses and treatments, it’s pertinent.

Using the bigger room is my default choice without knowing more, but what are the floors like - carpet, hardwood, something else? What’s the vaulting pattern of the ceiling - peaked down center of long end? Rise to one of the long sides? Geometrically complex relief?

Does the smaller room have a flat ceiling? Different floors than the large room? Those factors could better work for some speakers model’ clarity and SPL, despite the drawbacks of closer walls.

Lots of in-person listening to diverse high end systems and comparing them to memories of a range of live events has me convinced there is no true Jack-of-all-trades in stereo speakers, especially if main demands include (1) take-you-there-big soundstage, (2) perfect imaging, and (3) home theater duty (which almost always calls for well-matched-timbre center channel).

And that all means there’s surely no single true “end game” model at any price if you may need to place it in a different environment some day.

Another post mentioned using more than one speaker model in rotation. From the info available here, that’s where I lean, too.

 

[benanders]

Welcome! What did you get?

Line Array Speakers : Modular, Expandable, Out-of-the-Box Design for in-home use

That title… Sounds impossible, right? Possible, and sounds right. The project has spanned some years of (1) excessive backlit screen reading, (2) many in-person listening sessions to diverse high end systems, and (3) defining my preferences/expectations, then pursuing them with this particular...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The expectations and approach that led me to this [evolving] setup is what’s relevant to this thread - not the speakers, per se.

 

[MKR]

Another added to the short list …

Salk Sound

www.salksound.com

Very interesting. These were just debuted at CAF

 

[MKR]

I'd test drive some Wilsons, German Physics, MBL.

Thanks for the suggestions, appreciated.

I have heard just about every Wilson known to man and every time I came away with ear fatigue and “I just don’t get it” feeling. All that to say, definitely NOT a fan of Wilson.

Never heard German Physics, not really on the list, but we shall see.

Heard the MBLs multiple times (including the flagship) and all I can say is “meh”

 

[MKR]

Is the OP still taking input on this project?
I went a somewhat different, niche route than those discussed, and while mine is far from flawless and not “end game” (will it ever be for anything tech?), some elements of it may be worth consideration be them for pro’s or con’s.

And here’s to terminating my years of ASR-lurker-only status

Definitely still taking inputs! Thanks for any advice you could offer

 

[MKR]

@MKR, I think you should add 8361A+7380A to your list also.
With subs it will go lower in frequency which I think you will like for movies.
Also note that W371 is pretty tall (1108 mm | 43 5/8 in). I think this is easily missed.

I'll build a nice system for you
2x Genelec 8361A
2x Genelec 7380A
2x https://www.genelec.com/accessories/s360-415b-floor-stand
2x https://www.genelec.com/accessories/8260-450b-stand-plate
https://www.genelec.com/glm-kit (You also need a microphone stand). One 5m grey cable is included for every speaker/sub.
With DSP speakers we want to go digital to avoid extra conversion:
Bluesound Node N130 (Use COAX output)
HDMI cable to your TV

pro snake BNC to RCA Cable 2,0m

Cable Adapter Length: 2.0 m, BNC on RCA, 75 ohms, Neutrik

www.thomann.de

Neutrik NADIT BNC-MX

AES/EBU BNC Adapter Male Cable End XLR 110 Ohm to Female BNC 75 Ohm

www.thomann.de

4x https://www.thomann.de/intl/pro_snake_tpd3_5_fm.htm (Select the length you need)
You just connect to the first speaker. Then from the first speaker to the second and so on.
The cables should be 110 Ohm. AES/EBU uses the same cables as DMX (for professional lighting).

@squarewave Thanks. Hadn’t considered the 7380s. Why these vs W371? Note I already planned to add additional subs even with W371, as they really aren’t subwoofers. And thanks so much for that virtual system build. I am absolutely going to keep that for reference, seriously very helpful.

 

[MKR]

Okay, something more (grin).

I think some important things about the the OP’s goal are unaddressed / unknown and that limits the value of respondents’ work put into this [very good] thread.

Is the OP planning not to move again? Not my business nor that of any other responder, but in suggesting he/she put 4-5 figure$ into room acoustical analyses and treatments, it’s pertinent.

Using the bigger room is my default choice without knowing more, but what are the floors like - carpet, hardwood, something else? What’s the vaulting pattern of the ceiling - peaked down center of long end? Rise to one of the long sides? Geometrically complex relief?

Does the smaller room have a flat ceiling? Different floors than the large room? Those factors could better work for some speakers model’ clarity and SPL, despite the drawbacks of closer walls.

Lots of in-person listening to diverse high end systems and comparing them to memories of a range of live events has me convinced there is no true Jack-of-all-trades in stereo speakers, especially if main demands include (1) take-you-there-big soundstage, (2) perfect imaging, and (3) home theater duty (which almost always calls for well-matched-timbre center channel).

And that all means there’s surely no single true “end game” model at any price if you may need to place it in a different environment some day.

Another post mentioned using more than one speaker model in rotation. From the info available here, that’s where I lean, too.

@benanders Thank you sir, well said. I am doing just as you say … trying to determine the best system for my specific needs and agree there is not necessarily a single end game speaker that would work for all, but I think their are some systems that are closer to that goal than others. And I need to add some clarification here … I can assure everyone that has taken the time to help me in this continued excellent thread that I will not be spending $30k on a system without taking into account the largest factor, the room! In your recommendations please assume I will be making sure the acoustic environment is the best it can be. And note I never said $30k was the absolute top of my budget, only that is the limit I have set for only the speakers

 

[steve59]

Get out and listen, sometimes flat speakers sound flat. digital has gotten much better so we don't need forgiving speakers like we did 30 years ago, but I remember bringing a pair of vienna acoustics beethovens home and next to the textbook kef R105/3's the VA's were so much more engaging. the measurements might say otherwise but you have to get out there and listen.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Get out and listen, sometimes flat speakers sound flat. digital has gotten much better so we don't need forgiving speakers like we did 30 years ago, but I remember bringing a pair of vienna acoustics beethovens home and next to the textbook kef R105/3's the VA's were so much more engaging. the measurements might say otherwise but you have to get out there and listen.

+1

It can be difficult if not impossible to audition larger speakers in the most meaningful way (an audition in your home with your system), but hearing these systems in hotel rooms at shows and in dealer showrooms will give you an idea of how they sound. It would be worthwhile to take trips to target rich locations (visit the larger shows and to some of the larger dealers located around the country). If you can hear the speakers you think you are most interested in multiple locations that would be best.

Regarding the textbook perfect speakers vs. personal favorites, we are all individuals. You may find you prefer this or that "slight imperfection" instead of speakers that are absolutely neutral with an ideal polar response. Some people prefer Lowther based speakers and others prefer other "flavors" of speakers. While you or I may scratch our heads at this, they are not wrong. It is personal preference.

Creating a wish list from the input here and elsewhere is great, then take your time to set up trips to audition the speakers that intrigue you and try to listen to them in several locations. That is the only way that you will winnow the field and find the speakers you love.

 

[Steven Holt]

I did not like country til a few years ago. If you’re open to suggestions, check out Sturgill Simpson, Billy Joe Shaver, Swamp Dogg, and Tony Joe White. I’ll add specific songs in a bit. These artists are all more “country adjacent,” with some very good tunes. I really started appreciating country music after mixing it live (sound guy here), and so on.

Billy Strings is also amazing.

 

[MKR]

Get out and listen, sometimes flat speakers sound flat. digital has gotten much better so we don't need forgiving speakers like we did 30 years ago, but I remember bringing a pair of vienna acoustics beethovens home and next to the textbook kef R105/3's the VA's were so much more engaging. the measurements might say otherwise but you have to get out there and listen.

Yup, that is the plan, listen, listen, listen. Just trying to narrow things down to a “top 10”, roughly

 

[MKR]

+1

It can be difficult if not impossible to audition larger speakers in the most meaningful way (an audition in your home with your system), but hearing these systems in hotel rooms at shows and in dealer showrooms will give you an idea of how they sound. It would be worthwhile to take trips to target rich locations (visit the larger shows and to some of the larger dealers located around the country). If you can hear the speakers you think you are most interested in multiple locations that would be best.

Regarding the textbook perfect speakers vs. personal favorites, we are all individuals. You may find you prefer this or that "slight imperfection" instead of speakers that are absolutely neutral with an ideal polar response. Some people prefer Lowther based speakers and others prefer other "flavors" of speakers. While you or I may scratch our heads at this, they are not wrong. It is personal preference.

Creating a wish list from the input here and elsewhere is great, then take your time to set up trips to audition the speakers that intrigue you and try to listen to them in several locations. That is the only way that you will winnow the field and find the speakers you love.

@Mr. Widget And that is exactly the point of this thread … narrow down the field and then a ton of auditions. Won’t be making my final decision until around early next year as there are some speakers on my short list that aren’t even available yet.

 

[mglobe]

@Mr. Widget And that is exactly the point of this thread … narrow down the field and then a ton of auditions. Won’t be making my final decision until around early next year as there are some speakers on my short list that aren’t even available yet.

Spending OPM is enjoyable. So… what’s the current short list?

 

[steve59]

I hac the paradigm persona 7f in my system. Took me a year of listening to it with different amp combo's. Those speakers more than any I have ever heard can go from a 10 tl a 6y depending on components and the interesting thing to me was what the shop owner was a 10 I thought was a 6 and when he put a hybrid int in there and he thought the sound was generic I bought it. The woofer design of the 7f woofers is so sturdy you could boost low bass as much as you want and not worry about damage. I'm not recommending the persona's and I resold them because my hegel wasn't a good match and I lost less money reselling the speakers.

 

[dtaylo1066]

Thanks for the suggestions, appreciated.

I have heard just about every Wilson known to man and every time I came away with ear fatigue and “I just don’t get it” feeling. All that to say, definitely NOT a fan of Wilson.

Never heard German Physics, not really on the list, but we shall see.

Heard the MBLs multiple times (including the flagship) and all I can say is “meh”

Well, that's an O'fer for my recs, which is OK.

I would add that the Boenicke speakers I have heard were brilliant. And I have always been a fan of Sonus Faber. I heard the top Revel model at an audio show a few years ago and it sounded fantastic. I'd also say the same about Magico.

Boenicke Audio

boenicke-audio.ch

 

[reg19]

For large rooms with home theater spl requirements you should avoid all those little toys being mentioned left and right.
Forget small boxes with traditional drivers, active or passive doesn't matter.
They will compress or self-destruct in a large room with good acoustics long before you would want them too.

Whether you call them Kii, Genelec or something else isn't relevant, they're toys in this scenario. The mids and tweets are not up for the job, trust you me. Have ample experience with Kii - both with and without BXT - and can tell you they don't stand up to the task at hand for serious sound quality at loud volumes.

JBL M2 is mentioned, and while those are certainly no toys, but having DIY versions of those I would improve the design by having dedicated bass system for the lows, a second low-passed woofer close to the floor, a better suited mid-woofer and a better compression driver sewn together with phase linear filters- then it becomes cheaper, better and cooler than the originals.

But if I were me I would really look into CBT, line sources, Murphy arrays and huge constant directivity horn setups for this purpose. We're not playing with toys anymore, are we?

Either way the best results will only come if the room and speakers are planned as one.

So, in the myriad array of measurements being mentioned by several members, which one(s) address this issue (of these speakers sounding inadequate for large rooms)? As, it seems, a lot of members seem to suggest to go by almost measurements alone - so, I'm sure there's a number that we can point to that states this.

I have a similar sized room (21 x 21 x 9 but with rear wall half-open into another 20 ft long room). I bought my speakers (Focal Maestro Utopia III) the old fashioned way of listening to them first (though I did read the Stereophile review / measurements on them prior).

 

[reg19]

Watching this thread with interest because my room about same size as OP, and I just ordered some 8C studio for 4m listening distance.

If Erin got 100dB at 4m and implied they could go louder, I don't see why (with proper wall placement) they'd be an issue at 10ft? I listen to music around 81dB, at 10ft thats a good amount of headroom. With movies and this budget, presumably one would add a center and subs as well.

Cardioid effect is only down to 100Hz so you aren't giving up the important parts by crossing over to sub, and presumably gaining a little volume?

I also have Q's about the spec:

MAX LINEAR SPL @ 1M: 106dB CONTINUOS FROM 35 HZ UPWARDS [in half space]

I don't recall ever seeing Max SPL expressed as 'linear', what is the distinction?

Would half space result in higher, lower, or same SPL compared to typical domestic listening environment? In general, but also with regard to 8C's boundary coupling.

When you mention '100dB at 4m' - does all this assume that the different types of distortion are practically identical to when one is playing music at, say, 65dB at 4m? Or, is this where the difference between 'well measuring' smaller speakers vs similarly measuring larger speakers would lie?