$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Gringoaudio1]

I agree with your sentiments... but you have to admit the SN ratio on this thread has been way above average.

View attachment 262085

I’ve always thought these were ugly.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I’ve always thought these were ugly.

Perhaps not as svelte as one might like, but form follows function. And the craftsmanship is exquisite.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Perhaps not as svelte as one might like, but form follows function. And the craftsmanship is exquisite.

I’m sure they are built beautifully and all the curves have a purpose. Amazing speakers.

 

[benanders]

One thing I’m wondering about is me not having train myself to listen to speakers, if I’ll be able to express, or indeed perceive, the differences between them and my M106 (besides the bass).

I have not heard M106’s and Blades in the same room on the same upstream kit. But I suspect you would notice more difference than bass, between the bookshelf Revel and floor standing KEF. Whether the differences would prove sufficient price-to-performance-wise, Blades over M106, I won’t hazard a guess.

Unfortunately I couldn’t find any Salon2 around.

When choosing a pair of speakers in which a single channel costs 5 figs USD, plane tickets and a night in a hotel become fairly affordable investments.

 

[Lsc]

To post such a lazy, contextless response is preposterous. Please outline how you define endgame and put at least as much effort into it as I did rather than ignoring the clear bounds and context in my argument.


You're just ignorant to people who can't hear... To them whatever you say isn't endgame because they are working with different constraints! (Yeah, pretty terrible logic. You're talking about price to performance/value, not an endgame speaker system.)


I don't think you understand what I'm talking about when I say soundstage stability, suggest line arrays if you want with some effort to describe the goals and how they are acheived.

Lots of people criticize things they don't understand. Go ahead. You might define high fidelity/high accuracy while you're at it.

Please explain your criteria for an endgame speaker system and what you are trying to accomplish. You've done nothing to actually refute what I've said.

Ok, maybe I didn’t understand your original post. I thought you were saying that the Genelec was the only end game speaker and here is why. So I apologize if I misunderstood you.

To answer your question, the criteria for my end game speaker is easy to define because it’s what I said when I got the salon2. A full range speaker that is dynamic, musical and accurate, with a beryllium tweeter that I can listen to hours with zero fatigue and achieve audio bliss every time I turn on my system.

 

[Lsc]

Damned discussion here took a turn.

Back to fun with MKR adventures towards end game speakers if y’all don’t mind

This thread got me curious real curious about end game sound. I looked around in the area, turns out my local Best Buy just happen to have the Blade One Meta on display! I’ll spend some time listening to them this week.

I would never have thought about listening to those without this thread. I’m super curious.

One thing I’m wondering about is me not having train myself to listen to speakers, if I’ll be able to express, or indeed perceive, the differences between them and my M106 (besides the bass).

Unfortunately I couldn’t find any Salon2 around.

Please post your experience. For me the eye opening time was when I heard the Studio2 back in 2010 or so. I always wanted the B&W 802 before then and couldn’t believe how good the Revel speakers sounded.

However, I didn’t have anything nearly as good as the M106 so I’m curious as to what you will experience vs what you expect.

 

[MKR]

Damned discussion here took a turn.

Back to fun with MKR adventures towards end game speakers if y’all don’t mind

This thread got me curious real curious about end game sound. I looked around in the area, turns out my local Best Buy just happen to have the Blade One Meta on display! I’ll spend some time listening to them this week.

I would never have thought about listening to those without this thread. I’m super curious.

One thing I’m wondering about is me not having train myself to listen to speakers, if I’ll be able to express, or indeed perceive, the differences between them and my M106 (besides the bass).

Unfortunately I couldn’t find any Salon2 around.

Good for you, happy to see I have inspired others to bad behavior!

You will definitely be able to hear the difference between speakers. I was not concerned I would be able to do so after decades in this hobby, so no issue there, but I had the opposite experience … I have been stunned at how much difference there actually can be between different speakers. i have never heard so many different models in such a short period of time, which certainly helps, and being able to contrast while my acoustic “memory” still intact has been revelatory.

 

[MKR]

To post such a lazy, contextless response is preposterous. Please outline how you define endgame and put at least as much effort into it as I did rather than ignoring the clear bounds and context in my argument.


You're just ignorant to people who can't hear... To them whatever you say isn't endgame because they are working with different constraints! (Yeah, pretty terrible logic. You're talking about price to performance/value, not an endgame speaker system.)


I don't think you understand what I'm talking about when I say soundstage stability, suggest line arrays if you want with some effort to describe the goals and how they are acheived.

Lots of people criticize things they don't understand. Go ahead. You might define high fidelity/high accuracy while you're at it.

Please explain your criteria for an endgame speaker system and what you are trying to accomplish. You've done nothing to actually refute what I've said.

All … please, please, please can we not do this in this thread? It has remained remarkably civil and I would really love to keep it that way. Please don’t get all butt hurt if someone doesn’t like your favorite speaker, it is utter silliness. It’s not like someone said something terrible about your momma for crying out loud. I have said it before and will say again, they are JUST speakers, lighten up. You like what you like, I like what I like, let’s try to just be happy for one another if someone finds their sonic bliss. Please

 

[MKR]

I’m sure they are built beautifully and all the curves have a purpose. Amazing speakers.

That front baffle shape absolutely has a purpose… search the interweb for baffle diffraction effects! And indeed beauty in eye of beholder. Personally I love the looks of the Salon 2, they are even better in person, but certainly others have a different opinion. And that is OK

 

[MKR]

When choosing a pair of speakers in which a single channel costs 5 figs USD, plane tickets and a night in a hotel become fairly affordable investments.

Bingo … let’s just say I have spent a fair bit on travel thus far to audition all these speakers, and a bit more spending to come! But the peace of mind that comes from such an endeavor around one’s (large) purchase is very good ROI

 

[Gringoaudio1]

MKR please remind me of which Sonus Faber you heard. They apparently have a ‘house’ sound which has evolved over the years. I’m not sure it ever involved anything but tuning by ear. I don’t know about their process but their head designer is an Industrial Designer not an engineer. That suggests right there that looks are their priority.
I have not heard any of the expensive ones and found a Venere 3.0 with a matching centre and two wall mount surrounds used. A five speaker set. In perfect condition. These got panned by most (but not all) subjective reviewers. They don’t have the ‘house’ sound. It took me a while to get used to them and figure out good placement but with a decent amp (older Moon Celeste) and recently some EQ using a PC REW and Equalizer APO and employing a UMIk-1 at the listening position they sound amazing. And the waterfall plots are excellent. No ringing, tight decay etc. Weak tubby bass before the Moon amp surprisingly. A Marantz 7005 receiver to blame I guess. They even required different EQ with the different amps so I’m not imagining it.
I’m not a fanboy. They look fantastic and sound good. And we’re less than half of retail. Especially sound good now with 32 parametric filters applied.

 

[Holmz]

Maybe we should define End Game?

…
-Vertical dispersion is worse in all non-coaxial speakers. (Eliminates Dutch & Dutch, Kii, and Grimm... KEF and Kali and Devialet can be argued for)
…

The sofa has everyone on the same height?

(Stereophile step response measurement from Salon2 review)
View attachment 262943
Is it likely that the delayed response of the bass drivers was a design choice? I have read that some multi-way loudspeaker designers might bake in this sort of delay to force the main lobe of irregular responce upwards into a less offensive area. Messing with it might cause a more audible issue on or off axis?

Every other driver in the 4 way is flipped out of phase.
It is easy to do with certain XOs.
(and it might sound OK)

 

[mglobe]

Bingo … let’s just say I have spent a fair bit on travel thus far to audition all these speakers, and a bit more spending to come! But the peace of mind that comes from such an endeavor around one’s (large) purchase is very good ROI

I'm sure everyone here feels very sorry for you. ;-). The journey on this type of purchase (like cars for me) is half of the fun. It is however a hell of a lot more cost effective to experience it vicariously.

 

[RobL]

Every other driver in the 4 way is flipped out of phase.
It is easy to do with certain XOs.
(and it might sound OK)

Don’t think so. Quoting JA from the review:

“…Turning to the time domain, the Salon2's step response on the tweeter axis (fig.9) indicates that all five drive-units are connected with the same positive acoustic polarity, and that each one's step smoothly hands over to that of the next lower in frequency, this correlating with the excellent frequency-domain integration of their outputs…”

 

[MKR]

MKR please remind me of which Sonus Faber you heard. They apparently have a ‘house’ sound which has evolved over the years. I’m not sure it ever involved anything but tuning by ear. I don’t know about their process but their head designer is an Industrial Designer not an engineer. That suggests right there that looks are their priority.
I have not heard any of the expensive ones and found a Venere 3.0 with a matching centre and two wall mount surrounds used. A five speaker set. In perfect condition. These got panned by most (but not all) subjective reviewers. They don’t have the ‘house’ sound. It took me a while to get used to them and figure out good placement but with a decent amp (older Moon Celeste) and recently some EQ using a PC REW and Equalizer APO and employing a UMIk-1 at the listening position they sound amazing. And the waterfall plots are excellent. No ringing, tight decay etc. Weak tubby bass before the Moon amp surprisingly. A Marantz 7005 receiver to blame I guess. They even required different EQ with the different amps so I’m not imagining it.
I’m not a fanboy. They look fantastic and sound good. And we’re less than half of retail. Especially sound good now with 32 parametric filters applied.

Here ya go, from my first trip report …

Sonus Faber Il Cremonese
Driven by McIntosh monos. Horrendous. $65k of a mushy soupy mess. But, they were gorgeous to look at! But that’s all I would do if I owned them, just look at them. Nice furniture is about all I can say.

 

[steve59]

I am not sure about that ATI, I think it was running out of steam a bit in my audition. If I go with the Salon 2s, I will not be running them with ATI. They need more juice to do them justice. They are quite low efficiency. This became very obvious when we were level matching between them and the 328s (a much more efficient speaker). Massive difference. I am quite confident this is why some have a less than stellar experience with the Salon 2 .. they aren’t driving them with enough power. The dealer even agreed with me that the ATIs weren’t quite up to the task and he was going to switch over to Levinson monos at some point.

Yes, spend a lot more time with the B&W, I think you will change your opinion. These are very tipped up speakers, but that detail and “sparkle” sells speakers in the showroom, no doubt! And make sure there is no EQ! Dealers will do this sometimes to correct well known warts, then you get them home and you wonder why it sounds like a completely different speaker!

I'll chime in with a negative take on Joseph Audio- the Pulsars were possibly the brightest speaker's I'd ever heard when I ran into them at Axpona. It was to the extent that something was hopefully awry on the electronics side, or I'd just be puzzled. Even then, I'm still confused that no one else was running out of that room.
The former Raidho team of Michael Borresen and Lars Kristensen consistently run the best audio show demos I've heard (honorable mention to Andrew Jones). I loved their demos with the Raidho D1 and now the Borresen 01, nevermind the 05 (my pick for best system I've ever heard). With the reviews so far I'd guess you'd like the Raidhos but they're hideously expensive. $25K for their standmounts, double for the Borresen 01, then double that for the new M1; madness

Raidho d12.2 and now borrensen clip sweeter than any bookshelf I've ever heard.

 

[steve59]

Good stuff, thank you sir. For what it’s worth, Floyd Toole, Sean Olive, and Kevin Voecks (all Harman R&D legends) all still own Salon 2s as their mains and run them crossed over to (multiple) subs at 80Hz

Of coarse they do.

 

[Purité Audio]

Here ya go, from my first trip report …

Sonus Faber Il Cremonese
Driven by McIntosh monos. Horrendous. $65k of a mushy soupy mess. But, they were gorgeous to look at! But that’s all I would do if I owned them, just look at them. Nice furniture is about all I can say.

Two things we agree on, apparently that’s what audiophiles like, more analogue…
Keith

 

[steve59]

Based on what I've seen people saying over the past couple years about different speaker systems, my guess is that you may find a general preference for more directivity, or directivity of certain frequencies, but this is one area of loudspeaker design that I think is more of a matter of opinion.

My opinion is based on the fact that I've seen a distinct split between two camps when it comes to "realistic soundstage".

There are folks who want "you are there", immersive-type sound, and there are folks who want "they are here", accurate, pinpoint-able type soundstages. Without getting into a whole matrixed discussion of room size and liveliness on top of that, these generally indicate either dipole / omni or extremely wide dispersion, or controlled dispersion, respectively.

I think it may have been Geddes and Toole who notably couldn't come to an agreement on this, I doubt the rest of us have much hope of bridging the gap. If it's a matter of taste, there can't be any single best solution.

Bro, thank you for clarifying the cloud in my head. I 2nd this post and always recommend current revel speakers as great ht speakers with better options out there for dedicated stereo music rooms specifically because of the current design goals for a huge vs intimate soundstage.

 

[steve59]

I've learned to never depend on any audiophile who declares "I've found my endgame speaker!"

Most of us have felt that at some point in the past...for some amount of time. But audiophiles gonna audiophile.

The only time I could evaluate an audiophile as having found his end-game speaker is once that audiophile is dead. Then, if he hadn't changed speakers: "Well, I guess he was right." Until then, I'm suspicious.

I'm fond of saying 'endgame' is just an excuse to spend more than I should on the latest bobble.