$1200 of headphone audio equipment later and the differences in Tidal + Spotify are extremely subtle

[Googolbyte]

View attachment 98597

That'll be why.

Yep, that big ass dip is what made my games sound like shit.

 

[bobbooo]

The $160 HifiMan HE4XX still has the closest frequency response to the $60,000 Sennheiser HE-1 I've seen in the mids and lower treble, the frequencies our ears are most sensitive to, moreso than the $5,000 Sonoma Model One, which is only really closer in the bass (that can easily be EQed up on the HE4XX anyway):

The Sonoma One also has relatively high distortion in the lower bass (which would definitely be audible if EQing up to the Harman target) and midrange, inexcusable at that high price:

Compare to the 30 times cheaper HE4XX with its low, likely inaudible distortion across the entire frequency range, and no such problems when EQing the bass up to the Harman target:

 

[bobbooo]

@solderdude at the other end of the price spectrum, any impressions of HE4XX and HE5XX and after-EQ results? Which to get?

The HE4XX is definitely better (and ~$50 cheaper), with less of a roll-off in the bass and treble, as well as generally more even mids/treble:

 

[Cahudson42]

The HE4XX is definitely better

FR differences given, are there any other differences notable between the single-sided magnets HE4XX and double-sided HE5XX? For example, CSD?

 

[bobbooo]

FR differences given, are there any other differences notable between the single-sided magnets HE4XX and double-sided HE5XX? For example, CSD?

Measurably? The HE4XX has ostensibly 'cleaner' CSD:

Audibly? Probably not.

 

[solderdude]

The $160 HifiMan HE4XX still has the closest frequency response to the $60,000 Sennheiser HE-1 I've seen in the mids and lower treble, the frequencies our ears are most sensitive to, moreso than the $5,000 Sonoma Model One, which is only really closer in the bass

Those that heard the HE-1 and Sonoma in real life in quiet conditions for a minimal time period and have been able to compare them with other TOTL headphones may well agree on the amount of bass but not about other aspects, such as the 'effortless' and seemingly disappearing headphones.
There is a definite audible difference (for trained ears) between those TOTL headphones and entry level planars that, admittedly, have a good sound quality for the price. No match for TOTL though. The OP seems to have heard owned a lot and I agree about the described qualities of the HE1.
There really is not much that really compares, even when EQ'ed.
The average person will probably not hear much differences between 2 headphones that are EQ'ed quite similarly.

 

[Cahudson42]

The HE4XX has ostensibly 'cleaner' CSD:

Interesting. May I ask what causes the 'finer steppiness' (don't know what else to call it - the 'finer' 'higher resolution' ?) of the HE5XX plot? Lower mass/thinner diaphragm? Tension? Amp output impedance? (Damping?) Or?

 

[bobbooo]

Those that heard the HE-1 and Sonoma in real life in quiet conditions for a minimal time period and have been able to compare them with other TOTL headphones may well agree on the amount of bass but not about other aspects, such as the 'effortless' and seemingly disappearing headphones.
There is a definite audible difference (for trained ears) between those TOTL headphones and entry level planars that, admittedly, have a good sound quality for the price. No match for TOTL though. The OP seems to have heard owned a lot and I agree about the described qualities of the HE1.
There really is not much that really compares, even when EQ'ed.
The average person will probably not hear much differences between 2 headphones that are EQ'ed quite similarly.

If you haven't done blind, level-matched listening tests side-by-side without knowing anything about the headphones being tested beforehand, this is just unfounded, elitist nonsense subject to pricing bias (among many other unconscious cognitive biases). Apart from high cost, what exact measurable quantity, directly perceivable by the human ear, do you think the HE-1, Sonoma and other 'TOTL' (read: extortionately overpriced) headphones have in common that makes them sound 'effortless' to your decidedly above-average, 'trained' ears that can't possibly exist in an 'entry level' (read: reasonably priced and good value) headphone that you've never even heard or measured? Because as the data show, it can't be frequency response, and it can't be distortion.

 

[bobbooo]

Interesting. May I ask what causes the 'finer steppiness' (don't know what else to call it - the 'finer' 'higher resolution' ?) of the HE5XX plot? Lower mass/thinner diaphragm? Tension? Amp output impedance? (Damping?) Or?

If you mean in the frequency scale, it looks like that's just due to a higher FFT resolution on the HE5XX graph (2048 data points to the HE4XX's 256, as stated at the top of the plots).

 

[solderdude]

If you haven't done blind, level-matched listening tests side-by-side without knowing anything about the headphones being tested beforehand, this is just unfounded, elitist nonsense subject to pricing bias (among many other unconscious cognitive biases)

It seems like you have done this and found the HE4XX is just as good.
That's good news for your wallet though.
I would/will never own any overpriced headphone(s) b.t.w. (consider > E 1000 overpriced) but am not afraid to admit some of them sound really good and better than some entry level headphones.
I do get to hear the overpriced stuff though but am totally happy to go home and enjoy my non-elitist headphone(s).
Admit it... you just hate it I call the cheap HE4XX 'entry level'

 

[Berwhale]

Interesting. May I ask what causes the 'finer steppiness' (don't know what else to call it - the 'finer' 'higher resolution' ?) of the HE5XX plot? Lower mass/thinner diaphragm? Tension? Amp output impedance? (Damping?) Or?

2048 vs 256 data points. i.e. the HE5XX was measured at more frequencies.

 

[Blorg]

I tend to boost the hell out of the sub 75hz range, maybe remove a treble peak here and there. But I noticed on Windows since a recent update the EQ has had less effect on the music I've been listening to. When I play music through VLC and use that EQ, the differences are no longer subtle and I can clearly hear them.

That sounds like it's not working at all, that the Windows Update quietly disabled it. I tried EqualizerAPO myself and at least on initial install it simply wasn't doing anything. I can't remember if I did get it working, I think I did but it required fiddling. IIRC it was causing me issues (as many of these Windows audio things seem to do, had major problems with ASIO4All / Virtual Audio Cable as well) and I uninstalled it. As others have said, Windows Updates can reconfigure your audio setup in the background and you have to put it back. You can confirm it quickly by setting the equalizer to something really janky, throw in a 20db up-down W and if you can't hear that it's just not functioning at all. This is something I do just to confirm I have the thing connected and it's actually functioning.

 

[Googolbyte]

Replying to all the comments regarding Peace + Equalizer APO:

1. I have reinstalled the drivers/software etc
2. I do notice a different, but I notice the biggest differences in preamplification.
3. I can hear differences in the upper and lower ranges but again, they're weirdly subtle. It probably has to do with the filter settings I setup; like the slopes of the peaks and shelves.

Overall I do hear a difference but it seems more subtle than messing with EQ that comes bundled with my PC's internal soundcard or VLC.

 

[MajorMajorMajorMajor]

Personally I think it really matters what kind of music you listen to, for example how many layers does it have? and how it was mastered?

 

[Erik]

It seems like you have done this and found the HE4XX is just as good.
That's good news for your wallet though.
I would/will never own any overpriced headphone(s) b.t.w. (consider > E 1000 overpriced) but am not afraid to admit some of them sound really good and better than some entry level headphones.
I do get to hear the overpriced stuff though but am totally happy to go home and enjoy my non-elitist headphone(s).
Admit it... you just hate it I call the cheap HE4XX 'entry level'

As we already discussed in another thread, your opinion is pretty much worthless unless gained in a controlled environment. For now, your "I hear it, and my friends do" argument is the same as the one that cable believers use. I find it ironic and hypocritical, since you are often being at the forefront when it comes to bashing those people.

https://imgur.com/Q5D4KG1

Another point to mention, is that using emojis as a tool of damage control in a poor reply to a well-reasoned post is actually making it even worse.

 

[solderdude]

How do you suggest to blind test a HD800 vs a HE4XX in controlled environment ?


I hope you are not suggesting to emulate the 'sound' of 2 vastly different headphones, determined on a specific testrig, that doesn't take angling of drivers and many other specific properties (driver-ear distance, positioning, size and type, space around the drivers) into account and try to mimic that sound on a cheap headphone ?

Of course you know already that the research done by 'those people' was to determine what tonal balance people like/prefer and was not intended to prove cheaper headphones are equally good to expensive ones. Only that you can make them have a somewhat similar 'sound'... not the same.

That is not 'bashing' those people at all. Feel free to ask them, they are on this forum.
Ask them if the goal of their testing was to investigate tonal balance so that they have a target that works for the majority of people and to educate Harman employers or that it was done to prove cheaper headphones sound equally good as expensive ones only to keep manufacturing expensive ones like the K812 (which isn't so bad sounding as many claim it is).

B.t.w. I left my friends (who you dragged in for some reason) out of it as I don't have any, for the obvious reasons you mentioned about my character.

sorry for using emojis as a tool of damage control in my poor reply to your well-reasoned post

 

[xykreinov]

This one gets you close.

Try to audition one. It doesn't go very loud though.

EQing headphones will only get you so far, the basis needs to be good.
Note: it also includes a DAC + dedicated headphone amp.

You do know part of how the Sonama's response is so good is the DSP in its DAC/amp, right? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that per say, just that it makes it not such a good example of the base frequency response needing to be good. In other words, since it only works with its own special energizer which the DSP comes alongside, there is no analog base frequency response with the Sonama- it's already EQed.
https://warwickacoustics.com/headph...-64-bit-fixed-point-digital-signal-processing
"Helping us to achieve the desired response at the output of the headphone, we digitally process all signals using custom 64‑bit double-precision fixed-point arithmetic, running within a high performance, multi-core XMOS processor. It is well‑known in the field of audio processing that fixed-point arithmetic is best, and the 64‑bit arithmetic used in the Sonoma M1 exceeds the performance of most professional audio workstations."

 

[solderdude]

You do know part of how the Sonama's response is so good is the DSP in its DAC/amp, right?

Yes, the tonal balance is EQ'ed. The Sonoma is a complete device that does not need extra compensations. It's not that one can buy the headphone put a Stax plug on it and expect it to sound the same.
You buy the total package incl. the DSP which is a far better solution than making the headphone 'universal' and having to apply EQ yourself based on someone's measurements.
I suspect the HE1 also has dedicated EQ inside. Just like quite a few wireless headphones these days (aside from the effect one gets from NC)

The Sonoma suggestion was more for the specific remarks the OP made. Not to state that the driver doesn't need EQ... it clearly does. We have no idea what EQ was applied but they did a good job.

My remark wrt to EQ was not so much about the Sonoma but about headphones in general.
When you EQ a headphone that only needs some small corrections the end result will be better than grabbing a cheap headphone like the K92 and EQ the crap out of it. Yes, it will improve for sure but won't sound as good as an EQ'ed headphone that is already good.

 

[Erik]

How do you suggest to blind test a HD800 vs a HE4XX in controlled environment ?


I hope you are not suggesting to emulate the 'sound' of 2 vastly different headphones, determined on a specific testrig, that doesn't take angling of drivers and many other specific properties (driver-ear distance, positioning, size and type, space around the drivers) into account and try to mimic that sound on a cheap headphone ?

Of course you know already that the research done by 'those people' was to determine what tonal balance people like/prefer and was not intended to prove cheaper headphones are equally good to expensive ones. Only that you can make them have a somewhat similar 'sound'... not the same.

That is not 'bashing' those people at all. Feel free to ask them, they are on this forum.
Ask them if the goal of their testing was to investigate tonal balance so that they have a target that works for the majority of people and to educate Harman employers or that it was done to prove cheaper headphones sound equally good as expensive ones only to keep manufacturing expensive ones like the K812 (which isn't so bad sounding as many claim it is).

B.t.w. I left my friends (who you dragged in for some reason) out of it as I don't have any, for the obvious reasons you mentioned about my character.

sorry for using emojis as a tool of damage control in my poor reply to your well-reasoned post

There is no connection between some tonal balance research and the fact that you were making unsupported assertions which are based on nothing except your anecdotal beliefs. You're getting off the subject.

 

[solderdude]

I will repeat the question you so handily avoided:
How do you suggest to blind test a HD800 vs a HE4XX in a controlled environment ?

And I will add another question.
If there is no connection why did you insert a picture of someone that actually does research below your evaluation of me with my hypocritical anecdotal beliefs and pretty much worthless opinion ?