Is REL being more 'musical' than SVS a myth, or is there some real science behind this?

[Standingstones]

I have owned the SVS PB-12 Ultra subwoofer for the past 25 years or so. I love this sub in a cherry finish. They don’t make subs like this anymore. It is a brute in size and weight but I wouldn’t trade in for anything on the market these days.

 

[raistlin65]

I have owned the SVS PB-12 Ultra subwoofer for the past 25 years or so. I love this sub in a cherry finish. They don’t make subs like this anymore. It is a brute in size and weight but I wouldn’t trade in for anything on the market these days.

View attachment 120797

If you ever want an upgrade, Power Sound Audio can do custom cabinet finishes if you're willing to pay for it.

PSA is owned by Tom Vodhanel, one of the co-founders of SVS, the "V." I think you'd be very happy with his subs, as he's still making those kinds of subs. Just not at SVS.

https://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages/subwoofers

 

[RPG]

Hmmm....this thread has made me starting thinking. I've got two somewhat long-in-the-tooth (12 yrs, or so) REL R-305's. One of them has developed some internal vibration when pushed really hard (which is rarely). Now I'm wondering if I can't do better and replace the REL's with a couple of new, more reasonably priced but better performing, subs such as those offered by SVS or Rhythmic, or......?

My setup is is only for two-channel music listening (no HT use whatsoever). 2X Revel F208's ("original" ( Performas, not Performa 3), 1X Benchmark AHB2, and 1X RME ADI-2 DAC.

One major limitation: **Because of how my room is set up, I am utterly unable to run any more wiring than what is already there**. The subs are wired directly from the speaker terminals, via the REL's three-wire Speakon connection, into the REL's.

So, not being very savvy about such things, I'm having a hard time understanding how I could connect any of these newer subs in the same way that the REL is connected. If a sub has a high level or speaker level set of connection terminals available (such as the SVS SB-1000 Pro), can I wire the new subs to the speakers in a similar way as I have them currently (minus the Speakon connector)? If so, how?

I'd also consider wireless, but it is not clear to me at all if the AHB2 is capable of being connected to one of the subwoofer wireless transmitter devices while still remaining connected to my speakers.

Any advice/assistance would be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[pozz]

Hmmm....this thread has made me starting thinking. I've got two somewhat long-in-the-tooth (12 yrs, or so) REL R-305's. One of them has developed some internal vibration when pushed really hard (which is rarely). Now I'm wondering if I can't do better and replace the REL's with a couple of new, more reasonably priced but better performing, subs such as those offered by SVS or Rhythmic, or......?

My setup is is only for two-channel music listening (no HT use whatsoever). 2X Revel F208's ("original" ( Performas, not Performa 3), 1X Benchmark AHB2, and 1X RME ADI-2 DAC.

One major limitation: **Because of how my room is set up, I am utterly unable to run any more wiring than what is already there**. The subs are wired directly from the speaker terminals, via the REL's three-wire Speakon connection, into the REL's.

So, not being very savvy about such things, I'm having a hard time understanding how I could connect any of these newer subs in the same way that the REL is connected. If a sub has a high level or speaker level set of connection terminals available (such as the SVS SB-1000 Pro), can I wire the new subs to the speakers in a similar way as I have them currently (minus the Speakon connector)? If so, how?

I'd also consider wireless, but it is not clear to me at all if the AHB2 is capable of being connected to one of the subwoofer wireless transmitter devices while still remaining connected to my speakers.

Any advice/assistance would be appreciated. Thank you.

You can run split XLR from the RME DAC. Figuring out how you will do room EQ, if you are interested in such stuff, will be harder since you will be unable to add a high pass filter to the speakers.

 

[Destination: Moon]

Should arrive Tuesday, I will definitely do that

Mine came yesterday. The app is terrific and after a few hours of playing it sounds great to my ear. Far better than our old one and much more...... Musical

 

[Chrise36]

You can run split XLR from the RME DAC. Figuring out how you will do room EQ, if you are interested in such stuff, will be harder since you will be unable to add a high pass filter to the speakers.

I added line level filters in a similar setup works great.

 

[jhaider]

What do the guys on here think, are REL subs generally more 'musical' than SVS?

I think SVS generally uses more sophisticated drive units. Their previous 2000 model, for example, used a version of the venerable Peerless XXLS12 drive unit. That's the same basic design as used in Genelec's most powerful sub to date, as well as a number of "audiophile" brands. Some of their more expensive ones have underhung motors, which are more expensive to make (the top plate is much thicker than an overhung driver). That doesn't necessarily mean much, but IMO "musicality" in a subwoofer comes from having smooth extension well above the intended passband (making the crossover easier and more predictable) and no or benign port resonances. The XXLS12 is good to 500Hz, give or take. For single-sub users SVS has an app that may be of use as well. As a multi-sub guy I see that kind of thing as unneeded latency, but there are undoubtedly more single-sub systems than multisubs systems out there.

Aside from that, REL's connection scheme is antiquated, wrong-headed, and counterproductive. You may in fact want the subwoofers and the mains overlapping (presuming no automated room correction in play - none of the current systems except maybe RoomPerfect can handle that) if your mains are substantial and your sub very well behaved. That is the Geddes approach. Regardless, the processing required to integrate the subs or sub generally requires a line-level signal.

 

[Hotwetrat]

I think SVS generally uses more sophisticated drive units. Their previous 2000 model, for example, used a version of the venerable Peerless XXLS12 drive unit. That's the same basic design as used in Genelec's most powerful sub to date, as well as a number of "audiophile" brands. Some of their more expensive ones have underhung motors, which are more expensive to make (the top plate is much thicker than an overhung driver). That doesn't necessarily mean much, but IMO "musicality" in a subwoofer comes from having smooth extension well above the intended passband (making the crossover easier and more predictable) and no or benign port resonances. The XXLS12 is good to 500Hz, give or take. For single-sub users SVS has an app that may be of use as well. As a multi-sub guy I see that kind of thing as unneeded latency, but there are undoubtedly more single-sub systems than multisubs systems out there.

Aside from that, REL's connection scheme is antiquated, wrong-headed, and counterproductive. You may in fact want the subwoofers and the mains overlapping (presuming no automated room correction in play - none of the current systems except maybe RoomPerfect can handle that) if your mains are substantial and your sub very well behaved. That is the Geddes approach. Regardless, the processing required to integrate the subs or sub generally requires a line-level signal.

Great stuff cheers, would overlapping (by this you mean crossover set too high on SUB and no HPF? For example?) not create a BUMP in frequency response at the low end of my mains? (in this case around 60hz)

 

[dominikz]

Great stuff cheers, would overlapping (by this you mean crossover set too high on SUB and no HPF? For example?) not create a BUMP in frequency response at the low end of my mains? (in this case around 60hz)

In my limited experience with subs there is a fine line when setting the LPF where you can have some overlap but without getting the bump in response. You can see an example in my previous post. In my case, the amount of overlap I was able to introduce without getting a significant bump was enough to partially fix one of the dips in the response.
Also, if you have PEQ capabilities I imagine that even getting a bump in raw response wouldn't be a problem, since you could knock it down with EQ.

 

[Hotwetrat]

In my limited experience with subs there is a fine line when setting the LPF where you can have some overlap but without getting the bump in response. You can see an example in my previous post. In my case, the amount of overlap I was able to introduce without getting a significant bump was enough to partially fix one of the dips in the response.
Also, if you have PEQ capabilities I imagine that even getting a bump in raw response wouldn't be a problem, since you could knock it down with EQ.

Awesome info - cheers!

 

[RPG]

You can run split XLR from the RME DAC. Figuring out how you will do room EQ, if you are interested in such stuff, will be harder since you will be unable to add a high pass filter to the speakers.

Yeah, thanks for the idea which I think put me on the path to a solution. What I'll try, and after talking to SVS support, I suspect will work, will be running two SVS wireless adapter kits from each of the rca outputs of the RME---one channel for each of the two SVS PC2000 subs (the cylindrical ones---only subs that actually got a thumbs up spousal approval response as opposed to the typical "cubes") that I just put on order.

 

[Slayer]

Yeah, thanks for the idea which I think put me on the path to a solution. What I'll try, and after talking to SVS support, I suspect will work, will be running two SVS wireless adapter kits on from each of the rca outputs of the RME---one channel for each of the two SVS PC2000 subs (the cylindrical ones---only subs that actually got a thumbs up spousal approval response as opposed to the typical "cubes") that I just put on order.

You should do some research before getting the svs wireless kit. There is a detailed review either on here or audioholics.com. Seems like there are some drop-out issues and such.

 

[ahofer]

When I hear the words "more musical" I run for the hills.

 

[Slayer]

When I hear the words "more musical" I run for the hills.

Amen. Buyers should be aware, that when you have to advertise this way, instead of how well they perform spec wise.
" Run Forest Run "

 

[Koeitje]

I have owned the SVS PB-12 Ultra subwoofer for the past 25 years or so. I love this sub in a cherry finish. They don’t make subs like this anymore. It is a brute in size and weight but I wouldn’t trade in for anything on the market these days.

View attachment 120797

Reminds me of the BK monolith

http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/monolith-df.htm

I had one of the smaller BK subs, the finish is really nice.

 

[pozz]

You should do some research before getting the svs wireless kit. There is a detailed review either on here or audioholics.com. Seems like there are some drop-out issues and such.

@RPG

@Slayer is refering to: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-soundpath-review-wireless-transmitter.21356/

REL tested better in this regard: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-of-rel-wireless-subwoofer-transmitter.9165/ It's clear that wireless transmissions will cause intereference at least some of the time. In the end I'd go for cabling personally, but plenty of people use wireless without issues.

 

[win]

Not to be a jerk, but REL is not a serious performance brand. No one would use speaker level inputs on a high latency device if they were serious about sound quality.

 

[sweetchaos]

By the way, REL Acoustics is almost non-existent here in Canada.
Out of 178 resellers/dealers that sell subwoofers, only 6 (or 2% of total) sell REL subwoofers.

Mind you, only 6 (or 2% of total) resellers/dealers sell SVS subwoofers, so that's not much different.

Personally, I'd like to see a discussion of which subwoofers we want tested (*cough* Erin *cough*), specifically those models who don't have CEA-2010-A data yet. That calls for a new thread...

UPDATE: Posted new thread
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-to-see-tested-with-cea-2010-protocol.21908/

 

[More Dynamics Please]

Can anyone explain the science behind the claim cited below from the REL website?

These new Reference Series filters are as fast as theory permits a filter to be and many times faster than most competitors. Even something as arcane as setting correct phase becomes as clear and evident as turning on a light switch.

 

[RPG]

@RPG

@Slayer is refering to: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-soundpath-review-wireless-transmitter.21356/

REL tested better in this regard: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-of-rel-wireless-subwoofer-transmitter.9165/ It's clear that wireless transmissions will cause intereference at least some of the time. In the end I'd go for cabling personally, but plenty of people use wireless without issues.

Thanks Pozz. I am aware of the possible issues, but am limited to only two choices: 1.) either purchase two new REL subs, or 2.) try the wireless solution. Cabling is not an option---would love to but simply cannot.

I can mitigate some of the interference issues by putting as many of my home devices as possible on the 5 ghz band (have a dual band router). But, there will remain a few that are on 2.4. Seems that much of this is just individual situation/home specific. My distances will not be great---maybe a max of 15 feet from transmitter to sub---so I think there's a decent chance for a good outcome.

Also, it's not clear to me that at just the subwoofer frequencies (say below 100 hz or thereabouts, which is all I care about) that the REL wireless device had any advantage over the SVS wireless device as Amir tested them. In fact the REL's noise looked a touch higher in the lower frequencies.

All that said, with SVS's generous 45 day trial/free return if you buy directly from them, I can see how things go and if the whole thing's a bust, I'll send it back and see what REL has to offer at that point. The quality of the SVS product line and general service level seem worth giving it a good hard try.