Budget "stereo within HT" system development dilemmas

[witchdoctor]

I would go with a good reliable AVR with room correction, the Denon or an Anthem will probably work fine.

 

[Vasr]

So, should I still consider NAD T778? Or go for Denon 3700h as @waynel recommends and call it a day?

The measurements differences aren't relevant between the two.

Problem with NAD is the firmware glitches and some connectivity issues. Whether they will affect you depends on how you use it and what you connect, so it is difficult to predict. On the other hand, the amps there will drive far more speakers with ease than the Denon without getting hot. Dirac will provide the most benefits. It is better eye candy than Denon if that is relevant.

Denon is the best bang for the buck especially at a discount and the different features pretty much work out of the box. However, getting the best room correction will take some experimentation and twiddling with the separate app that Dirac would give you in an automated mode.

Both will likely be similar in long-term reliability.

 

[pretzelfisch]

How do you account for the fact that theater use needs the R/L speakers at a 30 degree angle, while stereo needs the R/L at a 60 degree angle to the listening position?

 

[waynel]

How do you account for the fact that theater use needs the R/L speakers at a 30 degree angle, while stereo needs the R/L at a 60 degree angle to the listening position?

What are you talking about?

 

[pretzelfisch]

What are you talking about?

I mean you either have speakers positioned for ht or 2 channel. if you have 5.1 ht why waste money on a seperate 2 channel path because the speakers will not be in the correct oriantation.

 

[waynel]

I mean you either have speakers positioned for ht or 2 channel. if you have 5.1 ht why waste money on a seperate 2 channel path because the speakers will not be in the correct oriantation.

You are misreading wherever you saw 30 degrees, it’s 30 from the center or 60 degrees between the speakers. Same for HT and stereo.

 

[TomekNet]

I've thought it over and I think that it's too early to get a rather expensive AVR with Dirac and preferably D-class amp (such as T778) as all-in-one solution.

So I'm about to go this way:

1) Replace my Yamaha RX-V685 with Denon AVR-X3700H. Mostly for XT32 and probably better fronts and sub preouts.

2) I will keep my class-D TPA3255 amp for now and will check out how it works with Denon preouts and if it helps to cool Denon down while playing hard.

Next steps planned (sequential or probably in parallel):

3) I will search for source selector, 12V or IR controlled. Preferably more budget-like and RCA-type as I'm not sure if I will use XLR cables. I found this https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/sour...ol-3-rca-to-1-rca-1-rca-to-3-rca-p-13494.html and seriously consider. Anyone of you uses it?

4) I will get a a separate Dirac Live enabled DAC solution for 2.2 channels
As I mostly listen to music out of digital coax from my music Audioserver, I actually don't need any streaming features in the music DAC.

So it looks like MiniDSP DDRC-24 (or 2x4 HD with DL upgrade) will do the job just fine here and its $400 (option 4a)
If I ever needed Tidal or Airplay2 I may connect AirPort Express Gen2 to it with Mini-SPDIF digital.
The only I worry about 2x4 HD it it's DAC quality.

An upgrade to this (that I also consider) would be:
4b) MiniDSP SHD
- clearly a better DAC, but would I notice the difference?
- XLR outputs, but would I need them anyway? All equipment will be next to each other, so short interconnects.
- Volumio with streaming services (see above, I don't really need that)
SHD is 3x the price DDRC-24 and still does not provide HT Pass-through or 12V trigger unfortunately.

4c) NAD C658
- 12V trigger
- 2x coax, 2x optical SPDIF
- probably easier to use for me in general (less nerdy)
- BlueOS that is well reviews in general
But C658 seems to have software glitches and it's DAC is not as good as in SHD (not sure how about in comparison to DDRC-24). And almost 3x price of DDRC-24.

5) I will hunt for a good deal on a good class-D amp - nc400 or Purifi, or perhaps a NAD 298 because of features it has such as 12V trigger, level adjustment, both RCA and XLR inputs. This is going to cost somewhere between 1400 and 2000 EUR anyway.

6) I will hunt for a good deal on a second sub or wait for SVS to release SB-1000 Pro maybe.

And if any good AVRs with: Dirac, Class-D amps, good DAC and good preouts would enter the market in next few years, I will sell both Denon and Stereo DAC (MiniDSP or NAD) and replace it with all-in-one solution, probably leaving the power amp only.

Does this strategy makes sense to you?
What would you choose for step 4 (4a, 4b or 4c) ?

 

[waynel]

I've thought it over and I think that it's too early to get a rather expensive AVR with Dirac and preferably D-class amp (such as T778) as all-in-one solution.

So I'm about to go this way:

1) Replace my Yamaha RX-V685 with Denon AVR-X3700H. Mostly for XT32 and probably better fronts and sub preouts.

2) I will keep my class-D TPA3255 amp for now and will check out how it works with Denon preouts and if it helps to cool Denon down while playing hard.

Next steps planned (sequential or probably in parallel):

3) I will search for source selector, 12V or IR controlled. Preferably more budget-like and RCA-type as I'm not sure if I will use XLR cables. I found this https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/sour...ol-3-rca-to-1-rca-1-rca-to-3-rca-p-13494.html and seriously consider. Anyone of you uses it?

4) I will get a a separate Dirac Live enabled DAC solution for 2.2 channels
As I mostly listen to music out of digital coax from my music Audioserver, I actually don't need any streaming features in the music DAC.

So it looks like MiniDSP DDRC-24 (or 2x4 HD with DL upgrade) will do the job just fine here and its $400 (option 4a)
If I ever needed Tidal or Airplay2 I may connect AirPort Express Gen2 to it with Mini-SPDIF digital.
The only I worry about 2x4 HD it it's DAC quality.

An upgrade to this (that I also consider) would be:
4b) MiniDSP SHD
- clearly a better DAC, but would I notice the difference?
- XLR outputs, but would I need them anyway? All equipment will be next to each other, so short interconnects.
- Volumio with streaming services (see above, I don't really need that)
SHD is 3x the price DDRC-24 and still does not provide HT Pass-through or 12V trigger unfortunately.

4c) NAD C658
- 12V trigger
- 2x coax, 2x optical SPDIF
- probably easier to use for me in general (less nerdy)
- BlueOS that is well reviews in general
But C658 seems to have software glitches and it's DAC is not as good as in SHD (not sure how about in comparison to DDRC-24). And almost 3x price of DDRC-24.

5) I will hunt for a good deal on a good class-D amp - nc400 or Purifi, or perhaps a NAD 298 because of features it has such as 12V trigger, level adjustment, both RCA and XLR inputs. This is going to cost somewhere between 1400 and 2000 EUR anyway.

6) I will hunt for a good deal on a second sub or wait for SVS to release SB-1000 Pro maybe.

And if any good AVRs with: Dirac, Class-D amps, good DAC and good preouts would enter the market in next few years, I will sell both Denon and Stereo DAC (MiniDSP or NAD) and replace it with all-in-one solution, probably leaving the power amp only.

Does this strategy makes sense to you?
What would you choose for step 4 (4a, 4b or 4c) ?

4a ) the DDRC-24 is not an upgrade over the Denon 3700 output as the SINAD is worse. Dirac is fine (and I use it in one system) but I think you are putting to much stock in it. Room correction is best used in the frequency domain below 500Hz with the addition of delays for subs. You can get good results with XT32, Dirac, ARC, or even just REW and a nanoDigi.

you may also want to look at the Anthem STR preamp which handles HT bypass , room correction and crossover well. I’ve owned one and I think the usability is far better than the SHD (which I also own).

 

[TomekNet]

you may also want to look at the Anthem STR preamp which handles HT bypass , room correction and crossover well. I’ve owned one and I think the usability is far better than the SHD (which I also own).

To expensive for me and I wouldn't have a place where to put that beast (47cm in depth) anyway

 

[Vasr]

I've thought it over and I think that it's too early to get a rather expensive AVR with Dirac and preferably D-class amp (such as T778) as all-in-one solution.

So I'm about to go this way:

1) Replace my Yamaha RX-V685 with Denon AVR-X3700H. Mostly for XT32 and probably better fronts and sub preouts.

2) I will keep my class-D TPA3255 amp for now and will check out how it works with Denon preouts and if it helps to cool Denon down while playing hard.

Next steps planned (sequential or probably in parallel):

3) I will search for source selector, 12V or IR controlled. Preferably more budget-like and RCA-type as I'm not sure if I will use XLR cables. I found this https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/sour...ol-3-rca-to-1-rca-1-rca-to-3-rca-p-13494.html and seriously consider. Anyone of you uses it?

4) I will get a a separate Dirac Live enabled DAC solution for 2.2 channels
As I mostly listen to music out of digital coax from my music Audioserver, I actually don't need any streaming features in the music DAC.

So it looks like MiniDSP DDRC-24 (or 2x4 HD with DL upgrade) will do the job just fine here and its $400 (option 4a)
If I ever needed Tidal or Airplay2 I may connect AirPort Express Gen2 to it with Mini-SPDIF digital.
The only I worry about 2x4 HD it it's DAC quality.

An upgrade to this (that I also consider) would be:
4b) MiniDSP SHD
- clearly a better DAC, but would I notice the difference?
- XLR outputs, but would I need them anyway? All equipment will be next to each other, so short interconnects.
- Volumio with streaming services (see above, I don't really need that)
SHD is 3x the price DDRC-24 and still does not provide HT Pass-through or 12V trigger unfortunately.

4c) NAD C658
- 12V trigger
- 2x coax, 2x optical SPDIF
- probably easier to use for me in general (less nerdy)
- BlueOS that is well reviews in general
But C658 seems to have software glitches and it's DAC is not as good as in SHD (not sure how about in comparison to DDRC-24). And almost 3x price of DDRC-24.

5) I will hunt for a good deal on a good class-D amp - nc400 or Purifi, or perhaps a NAD 298 because of features it has such as 12V trigger, level adjustment, both RCA and XLR inputs. This is going to cost somewhere between 1400 and 2000 EUR anyway.

6) I will hunt for a good deal on a second sub or wait for SVS to release SB-1000 Pro maybe.

And if any good AVRs with: Dirac, Class-D amps, good DAC and good preouts would enter the market in next few years, I will sell both Denon and Stereo DAC (MiniDSP or NAD) and replace it with all-in-one solution, probably leaving the power amp only.

Does this strategy makes sense to you?
What would you choose for step 4 (4a, 4b or 4c) ?

Suggest you do 1 and 2 (which you already have) and then upgrade only if you find something lacking so you can fix that. The worst thing you can do in audio setup is buy something hoping it will sound better. Unless the goal is the acquisition/collection itself.

A cheaper way to test Anthem ARC vs Audyssey is via the Paradigm PW Link box which is often on sale for around $200. I got this recently based on some discussions here and while it has its quirks, does a very good job in room correction. Use its optical in and out as a processor in the middle and feed in Direct mode to the AVR using its crossover but not EQ for the music path. At the minimum it will keep upgrade-itis at bay for a while.

 

[TomekNet]

So Denon AVC-X3700H came in and I replaced my Yamaha AVR with it.

After first day I've found Denon 3700 much better than Yamaha RX-V685. Pre-outs for fronts and subs are much stronger in Denon. I had to lower level of SB-2000 Pro to -20dB and Audyssey set the Sub1 level to -9.5dB anyway. With Denon even my old Sub works fine. 60% on the gain knob and -8.5dB level set by Audessy. I will keep this second sub for now running two subs in 5.2 setup.

I've also tested fronts pre-outs with my external TPA3255 amp and it was ok on 50% gain (with Yamaha it had to be set to 100%). Anyway, I don't hear any real difference between TPA3255 amp and Denon internal amp driving front speakers, so I will stay with using internal amp for now. Denon seems to drive KEF Q350 pretty well. The only issue I see right now is heat generated by the Denon, but it doesn't seem to be insane.

Next step planned: measuring FR with REW and doing XT32 measurements again, this time with Audyssey EQ app.
And learning how to setup Denon options to get most of the AVR.

In the future NAD 298 for the fronts, maybe. And replacing KEF Q350's with KEF R3's, maybe.

Anyway I will still be wondering if adding MiniDSP SHD with Dirac Live for stereo music listening in 2.2 would make any audiable difference in SQ

 

[TomekNet]

Fyi, I made today my first room correction with Audyssey MultiEQ App and I must say it made a miracle to sound quality on this Denon X3700.
I've measured only 3 points, set crossovers to 80dB, limited correction on all speakers to 500Hz and boosted curve on fronts in low end a bit.
I have not measured it with Umic and REW yet, but it already sounds very good to my ears!

 

[Fahzz]

Maybe next item the new KEF LS50 Meta's for fronts?

 

[TomekNet]

Maybe next item the new KEF LS50 Meta's for fronts?

I've been reading that Meta's are great but I'm more eyeing KEF R3's for fronts.

 

[Fahzz]

Me too. Those Q350's are gateway drugs. LOL