Justdafactsmaam
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Atmosphered owned his own lathe.Do you have independent confirmation that it is the case? And where do you get direct lathe cut acetate disks?
Atmosphered owned his own lathe.Do you have independent confirmation that it is the case? And where do you get direct lathe cut acetate disks?
That would be a terrible rationale. Tape hiss and groove noise live primarily at very different frequenciesThe rational used is you can hear tapes hiss on an acetate (and in some cases on the PVC pressings) so the noise floor of the acetate is lower than tape. Not the most scientific test but there is no doubt a lathe cut acetate is much higher performance than current pressed LPs and points to the potential of the format.
I guess you need to buy a lathe or know someone with a lathe
As noted elsewhere, Nimbus moved into CD production too quickly, having that run of CD with "CD Rot", where the layer that was supposed to be sealed from the elements would oxidize, rendering those CDs useless. I remember encountering a complete set of Beethoven symphonies with the Hanover Band (great historically informed set) at a used CD shop, only to find the set all rotted out. Nimbus has long been out of business, some of their recordings wound up on Brilliant Classics.….and if you are saying that the high volumes of Nimbus Records customers who complained so much about the audible issues with their classical catalog, as reported by their chief engineer and CEO in the 1980s, that the company couldn’t move to CD fast enough and gratefully enough…
Of course, excepting your very first sentence, he didn't directly address your arguments at all.
Sorry. I missed that. Had I seen it, I would not have asked the question.I said ‘permanently’, and you ask if that means ‘temporarily’?
It doesn’t have to be ‘chiseling’ or removal of material. It could just be plastic deformation, like a dent in a car’s door.
cheers
Nimbus still exists and publishes records : this month a record of piano music of Oscar Lorenzo Fernandez. And other publishers did it well before him, including Sony, Philips, DGG, Decca, for example. Nimbus pressed these CDs himself from 1984 before becoming an important independent player in CD pressingAs noted elsewhere, Nimbus moved into CD production too quickly, having that run of CD with "CD Rot", where the layer that was supposed to be sealed from the elements would oxidize, rendering those CDs useless. I remember encountering a complete set of Beethoven symphonies with the Hanover Band (great historically informed set) at a used CD shop, only to find the set all rotted out. Nimbus has long been out of business, some of their recordings wound up on Brilliant Classics.
Nimbus 33 rpm records never had a very good image in terms of sound recording due to two problems. The sound recordings made in their castle were natural but often too distant and too global, which was made worse by the BBC's own Ambisonic UHJ encoding which was not as compatible as expected for stereo playback on two channels: the his was confused...OTOH if you are saying that Floyd Toole, in making his comments that I reported, lacked actual experience listening to vinyl playback….and if you are saying that the high volumes of Nimbus Records customers who complained so much about the audible issues with their classical catalog, as reported by their chief engineer and CEO in the 1980s, that the company couldn’t move to CD fast enough and gratefully enough…if you are saying they also lacked actual experience listening to vinyl playback…then that is your perfect right! But IMHO you just might look a bit silly in the eyes of the unbiased readership, if you do hold to that line.
Les faits parlent d'eux mêmes. L'histoire de Nimbus Records est révélatrice : le marché de l'écoute musicale le plus exigeant a fui le vinyle aussi vite que possible, et ce, pour des raisons inacceptables au niveau sonore. Et ils ne sont jamais revenus.
Thanks for clarifying all of that. One more thing - Nimbus has a wonderful series of recordings of Classical Hindustani music. The recordings of bansuri player Hariprasad Chaurasia feature ragas that go on for longer than an hour, lovely stuff.Nimbus still exists and publishes records : this month a record of piano music of Oscar Lorenzo Fernandez. And other publishers did it well before him, including Sony, Philips, DGG, Decca, for example. Nimbus pressed these CDs himself from 1984 before becoming an important independent player in CD pressing
The problem you report affected some British and European publishers who had their CDs pressed at Polygram in Hamburg. Including Hyperion, DGG, Appian Recordings.
This phenomenon was called "bronzed CDs" because the pressed side changed to a characteristic champagne color.
These CDs quickly became unplayable after initially producing a characteristic "hissing sound". CDs for example of the complete Beethoven sonatas by Kempff, Michelangeli's Debussy, the historic recordings of Apian have been reached : I may still have some.
But this does not date from the very beginnings of the CD but from a few years later : the official explanation given was that the ink used for the booklets and the printed side of the CD had degassed in the boxes and altered the thin pressed layer which is located between the polycarbonate and the printed layer. another concomitant problem was the decomposition of the small squares of foam placed in the boxes to prevent the CDs from wandering around inside... the debris from this foam could stick to the CD and eat away the printed side which is the most fragile of the CD .
I still have some of the very first Nimbus CDs published (including Vlado Perlemuter's complete Ravel and his Chopin discs): they are free from this defect.
No doubt this setup put you through a lot of pain. I can go into the defects of this setup with a fair amount of ease (for example the preamp is likely to generate ticks and pops all on its own); none of it reflects on defects of the media so much as it tends to exacerbate its weaknesses. I'd want to go digital too having suffered that.How dare mean ole Sal tell the truth.
Look guys, I really did have vinyl rigs .
View attachment 355294
I've always been crazy, and the trouble that it's put me through
Been busted for things that I did, and I didn't do
I can't say I'm proud of all of the things that I've done
But I can say I've never intentionally hurt anyone
I've always been different with one foot over the line
Winding up somewhere one step ahead or behind
It ain't been so easy, but I guess I shouldn't complain
I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane
Just for clarity, acetate is a reel to reel tape medium, what was out there before polyester tape.Do you have independent confirmation that it is the case? And where do you get direct lathe cut acetate disks?
Thanks, I know that but I got lacquer and acetate mixed up. I heard about the lacquer factory fire. What process creates a better "master" the lacquer system or the direct metal system? I can see there are less "steps" in the direct metal process but it seems like it must be hard to cut something direct to metal accurately.Just for clarity, acetate is a reel to reel tape medium, what was out there before polyester tape.
LPs used to mostly be cut from lacquers. A lacquer is an aluminum disk coated with lacquer. Most of them were mode at the Apollodisc plant in California, which burnt to the ground about 6 years ago. I sold my lathe a few years later as the Westerex cutter doesn't do direct metal mastering and the only other source was a Japanese guy in his 80s that made the other 20% of the world's supply out of his garage. it helped if you were on his good side getting lacquers. Most LPs today are direct metal mastered as a result.
This subject comes up a lot when ever a phono preamp is reviewed and generates a lot of discussion back and forth ranging from 20 dB of headroom is required to few pops and clicks are more than a few dB above the peak music level so only a few dB of headroom is all that is needed.the preamp is likely to generate ticks and pops all on its own
Was just reading on this & it's a crazy read to be sure, So is there really only 12 Neuaman DMM lathes left in the world.? Were in the heck does Chad get his lacquer's for his nicer projects? The secrecy in this end of the industry is almost as bad as Formula 1 it seems from what I just read......Well maybe not as bad as Formula 1...lolJust for clarity, acetate is a reel to reel tape medium, what was out there before polyester tape.
LPs used to mostly be cut from lacquers. A lacquer is an aluminum disk coated with lacquer. Most of them were mode at the Apollodisc plant in California, which burnt to the ground about 6 years ago. I sold my lathe a few years later as the Westerex cutter doesn't do direct metal mastering and the only other source was a Japanese guy in his 80s that made the other 20% of the world's supply out of his garage. it helped if you were on his good side getting lacquers. Most LPs today are direct metal mastered as a result.
The setup wasn't painful; it was part of the charm.No doubt this setup put you through a lot of pain. I can go into the defects of this setup with a fair amount of ease (for example the preamp is likely to generate ticks and pops all on its own); none of it reflects on defects of the media so much as it tends to exacerbate its weaknesses. I'd want to go digital too having suffered that.
'Lathe cuts' don't use lacquers- they use something called a 'dubplate' made of polycarbonate or the like. They require a different stylus too.Majority of the folks I know are still cutting lacquers and have no issue getting them. Some are selling lacquer cuts direct to consumers and are sourcing several hundred a year.
You're on the right track.This subject comes up a lot when ever a phono preamp is reviewed and generates a lot of discussion back and forth ranging from 20 dB of headroom is required to few pops and clicks are more than a few dB above the peak music level so only a few dB of headroom is all that is needed.
Reading some other more nuanced comments like yours it seem that the issue is not absolute headroom but rather high frequency headroom because a "click or pop" resembles a square wave with a lot of high frequency content and many phono stages have low HF overload margins and when they "clip" on HF they make a pop or click. I have seen in @amirm measurements of phono preamps that most of them do indeed have lower overload margins at HF.
Is this the right way to think about how a phono pre can create it's own clicks or is there more to it? What measurements / design goals are required to prevent this?
Thank you.
I know nothing about the 12 lathes thing- this is the first I've heard of it. To my understanding the lacquers (if not DMM) come from Japan as I mentioned earlier.Was just reading on this & it's a crazy read to be sure, So is there really only 12 Neuaman DMM lathes left in the world.? Were in the heck does Chad get his lacquer's for his nicer projects? The secrecy in this end of the industry is almost as bad as Formula 1 it seems from what I just read......Well maybe not as bad as Formula 1...lol
Lathe cuts' don't use lacquers- they use something called a 'dubplate' made of polycarbonate or the like. They require a different stylus too.
Thank you. I am using a LOMC cart with a SUT. I added a zobel network to the SUT output to prevent ringing as recommended by Jensen. How well does a SUT work for RF suppression and cantilever stiffness issues?If a LOMC cartridge is used, the resonance is much higher- 100KHz to 5MHz. But owing to the higher 'Q' of the inductor, the peak is higher (and tighter around the center frequency); as much as 30dB above the cartridge signal. If the preamp wasn't designed to handle this sort of RFI at its input, all sorts of bad things can happen. This phenomena is why the LOMC 'cartridge loading' resistor myth has occurred, where the resistor is supposed to load the cartridge to reduce high frequency ringing or some such nonsense. What is really happening is the cartridge inductance is so slight it can pass a perfect square wave at 10KHz so its not the cartridge ringing. By putting a resistor in parallel with the resonance, it is detuned and so there is far less RFI. But the resistor also causes the cantilever to become stiffer, and the loss of the ability to trace high frequencies is quite measurable. If you really want to hear what's on the LP you'll use a preamp that doesn't have RFI sensitivity. Such a preamp won't have a switch for cartridge loading.