The Truth About Vinyl Records

[Sal1950]

Nope, no hyperbole there. I’m sure you actually tested a million records and only found one

LOL , Well of course I did, each and every one, haven't you ??? LOL
So how many of the God knows millions and millions of LPs pressed since 1948 would you guess
can even come even close to a 50 db s/n level. You take a guess.
And then back it up with facts

 

[Sal1950]

A dangerous topic: What sounds better, CD or vinyl? Well…​

A dangerous topic: What sounds better, CD or vinyl? Well… - National | Globalnews.ca

Ever since the CD was introduced in 1982, there's been a war about which sounds better: the compact disc or vinyl records. Who's right? You might not like the answer.

globalnews.ca

Seems to me the author zigs and zags and lands on some truths here and there, but with some fudgy logic or understanding in between.

"personally — and again, this is just me — I find many Red Hot Chili Peppers albums unlistenable on CD because of over-compression. But uncompressed from vinyl, all the subtleties come through."

OH, is this what you call a straw man? Instead of trying to use ignorance of the facts to give a false impression, maybe he should do his homework on the sources he listens to.
The first 2 pages of a RHCP search at DRD

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

LOL , Well of course I did, each and every one, haven't you ??? LOL
So how many of the God knows millions and millions of LPs pressed since 1948 would you guess
can even come even close to a 50 db s/n level. You take a guess.
And then back it up with facts

Why would I care? I’m not interested in being a toxic fanboy gate keeper. I buy records and CDs and other digital media to enjoy. I don’t see them as weapons to use for online audiophile debates.

I care about how my records and other media that I own sound and I care about how records and other media that I might buy sound.

I don’t have any LPs from 1948. But I do have a few rare original Columbia/EMI LPs from 1951. I very much enjoy them. Even worse! I paid $400.00 for this LP when I was in Hong Kong about 6 years ago. A reissue of an early 60s classical recording cut on an all tube restored vintage cutting lathe with no signal processing.

The Electric Recording Company.

It sounds fantastic. And the performances are phenomenal. I enjoy the **** out of this record.

I really feel sorry for anyone who is so entrenched in tribalistic audiophile feuds that it would render them incapable of enjoying such a marvelous record.

But truth be told I don’t really feel so sorry for people who cut off their nose to spite their face.

 

[pderousse]

"personally — and again, this is just me — I find many Red Hot Chili Peppers albums unlistenable on CD because of over-compression. But uncompressed from vinyl, all the subtleties come through."

OH, is this what you call a straw man? Instead of trying to use ignorance of the facts to give a false impression, maybe he should do his homework on the sources he listens to.
The first 2 pages of a RHCP search at DRD
View attachment 354480
View attachment 354481

The full quote: "Personally — and again, this is just me — I find many Red Hot Chili Peppers albums unlistenable on CD because of over-compression. But uncompressed from vinyl, all the subtleties come through. This is an uncompressed, lossless version of Californication more-or-less equivalent to what you get from a vinyl version of the album. Can you tell the difference?" Missing from this post are the data for the one specific album the author presents in support their argument, Californication:

Very clearly that album has higher DN than download or CD (N.B. The author does refer to "many" RHCP albums as well, and that some of the ones presented above in effort to disproove the author's argument, in fact exhibit higher DR than other versions)

This is in fact not a formal logical falacy like "straw man", but a matter of honesty.

 

[Sal1950]

This is in fact not a formal logical falacy like "straw man", but a matter of honesty.

There's a couple of digital 10s listed along with 2 vinyl 11.
I doubt anyone but JC his self can hear a 1 point difference in DR (if it's not a measurement error) but still mostly irrelevant.
If you also prefer to put up with all the other distortions and inconveniences of vinyl be my guest.

 

[pderousse]

There's a couple of digital 10s listed along with 2 vinyl 11.
I doubt anyone but JC his self can hear a 1 point difference in DR (if it's not a measurement error) but still mostly irrelevant.
If you also prefer to put up with all the other distortions and inconveniences of vinyl be my guest.

You are the one that offered up that general RHCP data from https://dr.loudness-war.info/. Now you suddenly decide it is "mostly irrelevant." Ok ... but that is the ‘shifting goal posts’ fallacy. For a second time you ignore the one specific source the author did cite with samples: Californication. I will read it: In your source – not the author’s – Californication has a DR of 9 vinyl / 4 CD, and you strategically omit this. You accuse the author of "not doing his homework" when it is you who dishonestly omitted his most specific evidence - twice. That is the kind of "distortion" I object to. It cannot possibly make you right. Rashly concluding that an author is wrong, because his thesis conflicts with your well documented view to the contrary, and then deliberately misrepresenting his evidence only suggests that you would bad faith partner in a conversation.

 

[egellings]

Boy you really love to make things up as you go along.
It's mostly a waste of time to debate anything with you.

I have no disdain, I simply make the point that the analog LP is a badly flawed media to use
for high quality music reproduction in 2024. That's the facts, use whatever makes you happy.

What do you find so absurd, High Fidelity ???
The idea is to eliminate the variables, that was one of the crowning accomplishments
of digital recording/playback and the CD. We have done much the same in the rest of the electronic
chain over the last few decades, there is little if any difference in the sound of correctly designed
products. Now if we could only do the same with speakers we'd really
be getting somewhere in eliminating the circle of confusion. Today measurements using tools
like Amir's Kippel system and the publishing of the results will lead many manufacturer to
building more accurate speakers. Combining them with the latest advancements in DRC
gets us ever closer to closing the circle.
YMMV


How perfectly said!
The position of many here is to throw any idea of HiFi out the window.
That's fine for them but not what started this industry or is still about.
What part of "His Masters Voice" don't they understand?
View attachment 353747

I saw a spoof picture that showed Nipper raising his leg on the horn.

 

[pderousse]

There's a couple of digital 10s listed along with 2 vinyl 11.
I doubt anyone but JC his self can hear a 1 point difference in DR (if it's not a measurement error) but still mostly irrelevant.
If you also prefer to put up with all the other distortions and inconveniences of vinyl be my guest.

To be clear: I have not expressed a preference here for vinyl, just for fidelity to what others write.

 

[Sal1950]

Californication has a DR of 9 vinyl / 4 CD, and you strategically omit this.

That means nothing, simply that 13 people put up results.
You do have to make post about something that's relevant.

There's 2 CD's with 10 and 2 LPs with 11. That's relavant.
What do you take away from that except a 1 point spread in DR. LOLOL

 

[Mart68]

The full quote: "Personally — and again, this is just me — I find many Red Hot Chili Peppers albums unlistenable on CD because of over-compression. But uncompressed from vinyl, all the subtleties come through. This is an uncompressed, lossless version of Californication more-or-less equivalent to what you get from a vinyl version of the album. Can you tell the difference?" Missing from this post are the data for the one specific album the author presents in support their argument, Californication:
View attachment 354495
Very clearly that album has higher DN than download or CD (N.B. The author does refer to "many" RHCP albums as well, and that some of the ones presented above in effort to disproove the author's argument, in fact exhibit higher DR than other versions)

This is in fact not a formal logical falacy like "straw man", but a matter of honesty.

The DR ratings for vinyl on that site are not reliable. That's been discussed at length elsewhere on this forum. Vinyl will measure at a higher DR than it has in reality.

 

[Sal1950]

The DR ratings for vinyl on that site are not reliable. That's been discussed at length elsewhere on this forum. Vinyl will measure at a higher DR than it has in reality.

Yea, you and I know that but the Luddites here won't accept it.

 

[pderousse]

The DR ratings for vinyl on that site are not reliable. That's been discussed at length elsewhere on this forum. Vinyl will measure at a higher DR than it has in reality.

Sal liked your point. He must have forgotten that it is unreliable when he quoted the site as evidence to disprove the article’s thesis. I quoted it only to show what he deliberately omitted. I am interested in this, however, can you direct us to some evidence that the vinyl measurements are inaccurate? Is it just vinyl or all of the measurements?

 

[Sal1950]

I quoted it only to show what he deliberately omitted.

I omitted nothing sir, at least tell the truth in your posts.
BS gets you no where

 

[Mart68]

Sal liked your point. He must have forgotten that it is unreliable when he quoted the site as evidence to disprove the article’s thesis. I quoted it only to show what he deliberately omitted. I am interested in this, however, can you direct us to some evidence that the vinyl measurements are inaccurate? Is it just vinyl or all of the measurements?

Just vinyl.

@Newman or possibly someone else will be able to explain the technical reason for this. IIRC It relates to the software that is used to determine the DR.

I cannot recall now the thread on which this was explained.

 

[SuicideSquid]

That means nothing, simply that 13 people put up results.
You do have to make post about something that's relevant.

There's 2 CD's with 10 and 2 LPs with 11. That's relavant.
What do you take away from that except a 1 point spread in DR. LOLOL

I can't speak to the vinyl pressing, but Californication (along with the first Mars Volta album, also produced by Rick Rubin around the same time) is the most over-compressed album I've ever heard.

"Bad producer makes overcompressed mush at the height of the loudness wars released on CD only, is remastered 13 years later for vinyl and digital download and isn't quite as badly compressed" doesn't tell you anything relevant about CDs vs. LPs, only about how bad mastering practices in the late 90s were.

 

[Mart68]

I can't speak to the vinyl pressing, but Californication (along with the first Mars Volta album, also produced by Rick Rubin around the same time) is the most over-compressed album I've ever heard.

"Bad producer makes overcompressed mush at the height of the loudness wars released on CD only, is remastered 13 years later for vinyl and digital download and isn't quite as badly compressed" doesn't tell you anything relevant about CDs vs. LPs, only about how bad mastering practices in the late 90s were.

I have it on CD and it isn't the most compressed album I own. That honour goes to a 'Best Of The Bee Gees' compilation CD. Also have a Don Henley compilation that's verging on unlistenable, and not because it's Don Henley.

'Californication' isn't that bad by comparison, it's listenable. Shame it's not a better album musically. I think they really only did two killer albums - 'Mother's Milk' and 'Blood, Sugar...'.

Both are good on CD, original release. Don't know about the situation with remasters.

 

[levimax]

Sal liked your point. He must have forgotten that it is unreliable when he quoted the site as evidence to disprove the article’s thesis. I quoted it only to show what he deliberately omitted. I am interested in this, however, can you direct us to some evidence that the vinyl measurements are inaccurate? Is it just vinyl or all of the measurements?

This was discussed up thread, much of it between @Newman and myself. Unfortunately this subject is complicated and people on both sides of it stake out extreme positions to "make their point". My take away, and I have spent some time looking into this with a lot of CD's and Vinyl that I own, as well as reading comments from "both sides" is that for a "post loudness wars compressed master" it is very likely if it is transferred to vinyl that the DR rating will be higher even though the music is not in reality "more dynamic". This make comparing most recent recordings on digital vs vinyl by DR more or less useless and misleading as the vinyl will have higher DR.

Where it gets complicated is for more "traditional" masterings from the 1980's and earlier. For these masters it appears that the DR rating does not change much when these are transferred to LP and in these cases a reasonable inference about the dynamics of the music can be made when comparing DR rating from the past to the present for the same song. Of course it really gets messed up when an older "traditional" master is "remastered" digitally and massively compressed per the current norms and then this master is used to press a new LP.

To me the bottom line is the DR rating CAN be useful if you really understand it but it is just as likely to be misunderstood or abused. For me the most reliable way to get dynamic masters is to get "original pre-loudness wars CD's".

 

[pderousse]

I omitted nothing sir, at least tell the truth in your posts.
BS gets you no where

HA! Anyone can read what you wrote - and omitted - yesterday. I won't repost the data you quoted first (It is your data), and not 24 hours later you now claim is unreliable (without evidence), because someone pointed out the captious nature of your reading and writing. You've proven yourself a bad-faith interlocutor. There is nothing scientific to be learned from people who retreat to name calling when they are wrong.

 

[deweydm]

A dangerous topic: What sounds better, CD or vinyl? Well…​

A dangerous topic: What sounds better, CD or vinyl? Well… - National | Globalnews.ca

Ever since the CD was introduced in 1982, there's been a war about which sounds better: the compact disc or vinyl records. Who's right? You might not like the answer.

globalnews.ca

Seems to me the author zigs and zags and lands on some truths here and there, but with some fudgy logic or understanding in between.

The framing of that article isn't terribly helpful. Could have stated explicitly, up front, that anything you hear listening to an LP can be reproduced exactly with digital sampling, using a CD or download or lossless stream for playback. It's seems they probably understand that, so why frame the article with what seems like a silly question in light of that?

Outside discussions here--in conversation with friends, neighbors, local record store owners--it's pretty common to come across people who really do think there are inherent sound properties with LP playback that you lose with digital playback methods. That LPs do "sound better". That you lose some thing some how with digital sampling. (Never mind that almost everything recorded these days is digital to begin with.) And many really don't want to hear it when you try and explain that it depends (on the mastering, etc.). Especially if they happen to own a record store.

 

[Robin L]

The framing of that article isn't terribly helpful. Could have stated explicitly, up front, that anything you hear listening to an LP can be reproduced exactly with digital sampling, using a CD or download or lossless stream for playback. It's seems they probably understand that, so why frame the article with what seems like a silly question in light of that?

Outside discussions here--in conversation with friends, neighbors, local record store owners--it's pretty common to come across people who really do think there are inherent sound properties with LP playback that you lose with digital playback methods. That LPs do "sound better". That you lose some thing some how with digital sampling. (Never mind that almost everything recorded these days is digital to begin with.) And many really don't want to hear it when you try and explain that it depends (on the mastering, etc.). Especially if they happen to own a record store.

Or a record label. Or a turntable/phono cartridge/phono preamp manufacturer. They have obvious reasons to promote the myth of analog superiority.

As someone who made many recordings of uncompressed acoustic music using simple microphone arrays, I could not hear the difference between the feed from the microphone mixer and from the 16/44.1 recordings made from that mixer. Whereas the various analog recordings I made from concerts or recording sessions were audibly different. And the digitally sourced LPs I've heard sounded different from the CDs made from the same digital sources. One can call that difference what one chooses, I choose to call that difference distortion. Not that I would use a battering ram on those enjoying their LPs (unlike a few around here), but I now choose to stick to my digital sources knowing they have the least potential for distortion.