Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[DLS79]

You mean when people throw around large numbers? Or just betting in general.

If people want to gamble I've got no problem with it.

What I do have an issue with is what amounts to a technical contest having a ridiculous high entrance fee/risk. How large the number is relative, $X might be trivial to someone who lives in the center of a major metropolitan city, while someone in a rural part of the same country will see it as a much more significant figure. Not to mentions when you start considering 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world countries!

 

[Unplugged]

I need a dac streamer. By the numbers, I should be ok with a “cheap” dac from Amazon. However, I wonder if there is ANYTHING to gain looking beyond the raw measurements like SNR or SINAD.

Is there any value in paying more for a dac other than raw specs? Yes there’s build quality (enclosure material, finish, etc.) but strictly talking about sound. Is the only important thing the raw measurements?

let’s say we have two dacs both 115+ SINAD. Can one sound better than the other? Could a $5k DAC have more (insert audiophile lingo here) than a $799 Chinese “cheap” dac if they both have comparable raw measurements?

 

[boxerfan88]

Take a look at the design & build quality of the buffer stage (right after DA conversion)...

I prefer high quality discrete class-A buffer stage.
Second choice is very high quality opamps.

I also look for balanced output.

 

[Beave]

Take a look at the design & build quality of the buffer stage (right after DA conversion)...

I prefer high quality discrete class-A buffer stage.
Second choice is very high quality opamps.

I also look for balanced output.

Why discrete? And what do you mean by "high quality?" How does one determine that by looking?

 

[Pearljam5000]

Wow 400 pages
Is there a TLDR?

 

[Martin]

Wow 400 pages
Is there a TLDR?

Yes:

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? They can not. Are that many confused? Yes. [/thread]

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Unplugged]

Why discrete? And what do you mean by "high quality?" How does one determine that by looking?

Thanks. My question as well.

 

[JSmith]

Could a $5k DAC have more (insert audiophile lingo here) than a $799 Chinese “cheap” dac if they both have comparable raw measurements?

No.


JSmith

 

[Chrispy]

When in hell is $799 a cheap dac? $5k is just silly, tho.

 

[StigErik]

You can get state of the art performance for 100$. SMSL or Topping, to name two brands.

 

[JSmith]

JSmith

 

[waynel]

I need a dac streamer. By the numbers, I should be ok with a “cheap” dac from Amazon. However, I wonder if there is ANYTHING to gain looking beyond the raw measurements like SNR or SINAD.

Is there any value in paying more for a dac other than raw specs? Yes there’s build quality (enclosure material, finish, etc.) but strictly talking about sound. Is the only important thing the raw measurements?

let’s say we have two dacs both 115+ SINAD. Can one sound better than the other? Could a $5k DAC have more (insert audiophile lingo here) than a $799 Chinese “cheap” dac if they both have comparable raw measurements?

Features like multiple inputs, volume control , remote , xlr outputs . All this can be had with state of the art performance for around $200.

This one looks pretty good

SMSL D-6s Balanced DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL D-6s balanced stereo DAC with Bluetooth support. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $199. I was pleasantly surprised with the new industrial design which while minimalistic, manages to impress with its modern style. Love the matt...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Just add a cheap streamer with a digital out.

 

[waynel]

And just this alone will be good if you don't need xlr outs

WiiM Pro Plus Streamer Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Pro Plus streamer, DAC and preamplifier with Bluetooth support. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $219. While the case is plastic, it still "looks the part" as the Brits would say relative to other more famous brands of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Brian Hall]

I need a dac streamer. By the numbers, I should be ok with a “cheap” dac from Amazon. However, I wonder if there is ANYTHING to gain looking beyond the raw measurements like SNR or SINAD.

Is there any value in paying more for a dac other than raw specs? Yes there’s build quality (enclosure material, finish, etc.) but strictly talking about sound. Is the only important thing the raw measurements?

let’s say we have two dacs both 115+ SINAD. Can one sound better than the other? Could a $5k DAC have more (insert audiophile lingo here) than a $799 Chinese “cheap” dac if they both have comparable raw measurements?

Anyone paying $5000 for a DAC is crazy.

 

[StigErik]

… or has more money than brains…..

 

[Chrispy]

… or has more money than brains…..

Or has a nice precious metal and jewel finish?

 

[solderdude]

I need a dac streamer. By the numbers, I should be ok with a “cheap” dac from Amazon. However, I wonder if there is ANYTHING to gain looking beyond the raw measurements like SNR or SINAD.

Is there any value in paying more for a dac other than raw specs? Yes there’s build quality (enclosure material, finish, etc.) but strictly talking about sound. Is the only important thing the raw measurements?

let’s say we have two dacs both 115+ SINAD. Can one sound better than the other? Could a $5k DAC have more (insert audiophile lingo here) than a $799 Chinese “cheap” dac if they both have comparable raw measurements?

115 SINAD only guarantees that at 2V/4V output voltage a 1kHz sinewave will be 115dB louder than any unwanted signals below 20kHz.
That's all it means.
Most likely anything with SINAD above 90 will be more than enough for home appliance.

Frequency response could be wrong, filters could be wrong, needed inputs could even be problematic in other cases than connected to the AP, the device is connected to other gear and as groundloops is not testen for you could end up with a hum or weird noises in some cases. Not even mentioning longevity and after market support.
Some of it could be measured and some aspects are measured some will remain a mystery.

A streamer is not the same thing as a DAC, A streamer can have an on-board DAC.

A DAC (so not a streamer) that is more than good enough can be had for below $ 150.-

When you believe certain streamers contain 'better sound' and you have no problems spending $5k on a really nice, feature packed big name device than I could see people buying that stuff and the belief that it brings better sound will be enough to actually enjoy it more (that's how high-end works).

 

[solderdude]

Wow 400 pages
Is there a TLDR?

On the original question ... yes:

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?​

The only thing that could be debated here is what 'transparent' entails.
Not all DACs measure 'transparent' and some of them could have a sound signature.

That's it in a nutshell...
Not all DACs measure/perform that well and could be told apart in 'lab conditions.
Not all DACs may perform as well in the home as they did on a test bench.
DACs that measure 'transparent' (that word needs to be defined properly) all put out 2 analog waveforms that have higher signal fidelity than any ears/brains can discern so there cannot be audible differences in that case.

 

[boxerfan88]

Thanks. My question as well.

Why discrete? And what do you mean by "high quality?" How does one determine that by looking?

1. Why discrete?
   • As I mentioned in my post, it's my preference. Discrete isn't better or worse.
   • I've also mentioned in my earlier post, opamps are my second choice, these integrated circuits aren't ruled out for me.
2. And what do you mean by "high quality?" How does one determine that by looking?
   • Typically I look out for component quality used (transistor model, resistor/capacitor tolerances)
   • If the schematics can be found ... just take a look at the design. Class-A design is old and quite standard.
   • Lookout for the care taken for component/circuit layout.
   • Lookout for the care taken for noise shielding, wiring.
   • Lookout for separate analog power supply.

Long time ago, a wise person told me, the buffer stage has the most impact to a DAC's sound quality. True or not, is certainly open to debate...

 

[Rja4000]

Could (...) DAC have more (insert audiophile lingo here) than a (...) “cheap” dac if they both have comparable raw measurements?

Yes.
The audiophile lingo to be used is "functionalities".

Of course, it only relates to how much those functionalities may improve your sonic experience.

Examples: miniDSP SHD has Dirac room correction included. This functionality may, for sure, provide a better sonic experience.
RME has advanced PEQ and (lack of) loudness compensation. That too can have benefits you may easily hear.
...

If that's not for this, then have a look or post your question in this thread.