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If all speakers measure flat, what is the point of auditioning?

Can you shop solely from measurements alone?

  • Yes

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smallwonder

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I have spent the better part of this week trying to understand shopping for speakers. I come from a home theater background and there accuracy is less important...I think. Here measurements trump everything. Why would I need to even listen to a pair of speakers if they measure flat? All other variables equal, would they not sound the same?
 

wwenze

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There wouldn't be a need to audition and it would be a perfect world. Do you audition USB cables to see which is faster?

The issue is there aren't two speakers that measure the same. Even if they are all flat on axis, they have different beamwidth, they're not flat off-axis, they have different sizes so their nearfield effect region (lots of boundary effects) are different
 

staticV3

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Two speakers that have equal response in all axes will sound the same, no matter the listening environment.

Two speakers that have equal response on-axis, may sound substantially different in your room, due to response differences off-axis.
 

StigErik

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I have spent the better part of this week trying to understand shopping for speakers. I come from a home theater background and there accuracy is less important...I think. Here measurements trump everything. Why would I need to even listen to a pair of speakers if they measure flat? All other variables equal, would they not sound the same?
Why is accuracy less important in home theater? Just curious, since I think its even more important than for simple 2-channel audio.
 

dweeeeb2

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On top of whats already been said a speakers impedance and max spl can determine which one best suits your system / intent.
EDIT: As to your question about shopping from measurements alone. I think you can, because you will still choose a better speaker if you limit yourself to measured ones as opposed to limiting yourself to a few audio shops. We keep chasing the perfect speaker yet in reality these measurements have put us soooo far ahead of the curve that I think statistically you will do much better if you just were to use measurements alone.
 
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smallwonder

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There wouldn't be a need to audition and it would be a perfect world. Do you audition USB cables to see which is faster?

The issue is there aren't two speakers that measure the same. Even if they are all flat on axis, they have different beamwidth, they're not flat off-axis, they have different sizes so their nearfield effect region (lots of boundary effects) are different
This hypothetical has everything essentially equal in regards to size...

Why is accuracy less important in home theater? Just curious, since I think its even more important than for simple 2-channel audio.
This might be my bias, however I do not hear it discussed as much in those circles. Receiver inputs and outputs, cable management, projectors, center channels, and how big your surround set up is seem to take priority.
 

scrubb

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I would expect that if you could find two different speakers with identical measurements they would sound the same - e.g. each speaker in a pair. Speakers are transducers which have the most difficult job in audio. I don't think you'll find two speakers with identical measurements, let alone exactly flat on all axes. There are also differences caused by transducer size. Those small variations you see even in relatively flat measuring speakers are likely to cause subtle variations in the overall timbre of any given speaker. Therefore speakers are one component in which subjective listening tests are necessary. Even in Amir's speaker reviews you'll see a relatively long section on subjective analysis.
 
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smallwonder

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That's a shame, since most movie soundtracks sound really good.
This could be anecdotal on my part.

I would expect that if you could find two different speakers with identical measurements they would sound the same - e.g. each speaker in a pair. Speakers are transducers which have the most difficult job in audio. I don't think you'll find two speakers with identical measurements, let alone exactly flat on all axes. There are also differences caused by transducer size. Those small variations you see even in relatively flat measuring speakers are likely to cause subtle variations in the overall timbre of any given speaker. Therefore speakers are one component in which subjective listening tests are necessary. Even in Amir's speaker reviews you'll see a relatively long section on subjective analysis.
My exercise is theoretical, and I am trying to understand more of the psychology behind the subjective analysis side. I come from an analytical background so this thought experiment is especially interesting to me.
 
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smallwonder

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Maybe, but if you knew how much work and care that is put into movie soundtracks you might change your mind.
Coming from the classical realm, I have even watched some symphonies score a given film. Mixing and mastering a movie is one thing. How it is consumed in a home theater is another. When I say home theater consumers prioritize it less, I am referring to what is discussed amongst them versus a two channel set up. If I were to guess, the additional variables for watching cinema at home contributes to less attention paid to flat speakers.
 

StigErik

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Yes, I think you're correct about that.

In my own setup however, the video side of things is about 10% of the money spent on audio equipment.
 

dominikz

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@smallwonder As others have stated, if you could find two loudspeakers that measure the same they would indeed sound the same.

However, for this it is not enough that they measure "flat" on-axis - they would need to measure exactly the same from all angles all around the loudspeaker.
In practice there are no two different loudspeakers that measure that similarly, at least not to my knowledge.

Here's a nice example - Neumann KH80 DSP and Genelec 8320A both measure very flat on-axis and so seem pretty similar at a glance (except for the small difference in low frequency extension):
on-axis.png


But their radiation patterns are different enough that they might sound more different than one would assume from seeing just the on-axis response:
1708698462442.png

1708698524332.png


Source of the diagrams: spinorama.org
 

sigbergaudio

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My exercise is theoretical, and I am trying to understand more of the psychology behind the subjective analysis side. I come from an analytical background so this thought experiment is especially interesting to me.

In theory, if they measured the same in every single way, the only thing left to choose by is how they look, so then you wouldn't need to audition unless you wanted to see how they look in real life.

In practice, you won't find two speakers that measure the same.
 

tmtomh

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On top of whats already been said a speakers impedance and max spl can determine which one best suits your system / intent.
EDIT: As to your question about shopping from measurements alone. I think you can, because you will still choose a better speaker if you limit yourself to measured ones as opposed to limiting yourself to a few audio shops. We keep chasing the perfect speaker yet in reality these measurements have put us soooo far ahead of the curve that I think statistically you will do much better if you just were to use measurements alone.

@smallwonder - welcome to ASR! And a very interesting topic you've started here.

No two speakers measure closely enough, in all the ways that impact perceived sound from a listening position in a room, to sound essentially identical. In the future that might change, but as of now that seems to be the case.

However, you've made it clear that you understand that and are interested in a hypothetical situation where different speakers do measure closely enough in all those aspects.

My view is that @dweeeeb2 's comment captures the best answer to your query. Room effects, sighted listening bias, and lack of consistent listening-comparison controls all make the auditioning of speakers at various dealers/showrooms highly unreliable and much less reliable than properly done measurements. Auditioning multiple speakers in one's own listening space avoids some of those problems, but others remain, especially if you don't audition all the speakers at the same time.

But cognitively or psychologically, a lot of people have a simple fear: what if I buy based on the measurements and then I get them in my room and I don't like how they sound? That's a very reasonable concern. Where I think dweeeb2 hits the nail on the head, though, is that in terms of probabilities we are more likely to end up with a speaker we like if we make a thorough, informed review of detailed, properly done measurements than if we go by short-term, uncontrolled listening comparisons, especially if those comparisons are done in different locations and/or at different times.

But I think as humans we tend to have a cognitive bias here: if we in-person audition 8 speakers and pick 1, we tend to discount the chances that one of the many other speakers we never auditioned would have been better - and we really tend to discount the possibility that one of the other 7 we did audition would actually sound just as good or even better in our room, day in and day out, over long-term listening.

Conversely, if we review measurements and order a speaker on that basis, I think we tend to be very conscious of the possibility that another speaker might have sounded better to us, because we feel like if we had only listened to both of them we would have instantly and unequivocally realized that. I don't think that's actually true, but intuitively it makes so much sense that a lot of people believe it.

So I think in our minds using measurements vs auditioning leads to qualitatively different-seeming scenarios where our choice turns out to be wrong, and I think we give those scenarios different weights in our mind that don't actually correlate to the reliability level of each method of selecting a speaker.
 
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sergeauckland

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The way I approach this is that if two loudspeakers measure decently flat, then neither is wrong, and either will suit adequately. Consequently, I would buy on looks and/or manufacturer's reputation for support and just get used to any small differences between them.

With 'good' loudspeakers, even if there are differences between them, noticeable on direct AB comparison, one very soon gets used to the sound as presented. Poor looks one is stuck with forever.

S.
 

levimax

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One other very useful measurement that @amirm provides is the directivity. If the speaker is more or less flat on axis with a smooth off axis directivity with no big "errors" you can be confident that even if the speaker is not perfect for your subjective tastes in your room you will be able to EQ it to get it where you want it.
 
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