Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[BDWoody]

Those of you who say that there is no difference, it is because you do not have adequate equipment or listening place, to be able to hear that difference my friend.

Uh huh...

More posts moved in.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

... I can assure you. that not only do dacs sound very different, but even changing a cheap power cable for a more expensive one also makes a difference.

I have it and I can confirm that there is a big difference.

If there is a detectable difference, it will be statistically obvious in blind testing. If it is not statistically obvious in blind testing, then there is no detectable difference, no matter what one believes.

Much of what people believe is the effect of bias. Here is a list of biases:

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And in case you wish to know the basic protocols for a controlled blind test, they are here:

Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! (Video)

Just uploaded a video on the basics of performing controlled tests in audio. It was motivated by saving myself text in having to write all of this down when telling someone who to do these tests right. And as a counter to a few online personalities to keep saying they do "blind" tests yet when...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Jim

 

[Mart68]

I trust my ears, no one else. I was like you, I read a lot, until I realized. Unfortunately, I have lost a lot of money and time to be able to check all those things for myself, my friend. but if you want to trust what you see written on the internet, I respect that.

you read a lot but missed out on reading up on cognitive bias and how audio electronics actually work?

I'm sorry you wasted a lot of time and money because of that but I think most of us here have done that to some extent.

 

[solderdude]

Is it Possible for Audio Equipment Manufacturers to Sacrifice Overall Quality in Pursuit of Better SINAD?

Yes, but it would be pointless because SINAD is just one quick measurement and it would become obvious through other (obligatory) measurements.

example of good SINAD but wrong coupling capacitor at the input creating higher distortion in the bass:
\

Not that this matters much because human hearing is rather insensitive at low levels in that range anyway.

 

[solderdude]

I am an expert in testing high-end equipment, I have a music production studio in which I spent more than $100,000,

There are people with expensive watches, does that make them experts in telling time ?

I have my control room acoustically conditioned and calibrated with a frequency response of +-3 db throughout the frequency range, and I can assure you. that not only do dacs sound very different, but even changing a cheap power cable for a more expensive one also makes a difference.

It should be possible to record that...
Could you make a 384/24 bit recording of both DACs reproducing the same piece of music + the original and make that available ?
After all you have an expensive control room so should be able to record those differences, that should be easy to do....

Those of you who say that there is no difference, it is because you do not have adequate equipment or listening place, to be able to hear that difference my friend.

That's the usual reply.... consider the possibility that there are plenty of friends here with equipment even exceeding resolution of your studio gear.

 

[ahofer]

You are wrong my friend, I am an expert in testing high-end equipment, I have a music production studio in which I spent more than $100,000, I have tested dacs from several brands, I even have an Apogee Symphony desktop, which costs $1600, It has a 9028 pro chip, and the d90se sounds much better than this one and others that I have tried. I have my control room acoustically conditioned and calibrated with a frequency response of +-3 db throughout the frequency range, and I can assure you. that not only do dacs sound very different, but even changing a cheap power cable for a more expensive one also makes a difference. Those of you who say that there is no difference, it is because you do not have adequate equipment or listening place, to be able to hear that difference my friend. These dacs are not for everyone, they are for people who have very high-end equipment. I have it and I can confirm that there is a big difference. In case you wanted to know, you can ask me whatever you want, I am at your disposal. greetings from Spain.

Greetings from the US. I’m afraid arguments from authority don’t get very far here. Bring blind-testing evidence, and you might change some minds. In the meantime, there’s only the tiniest chance that any human can do what you claim unsighted. Don’t take it personally, nobody knows or cares about your studio brag, we’re just going with the research and real probabilities.

 

[Speedskater]

If two DACs sound different (ears only) they will measure different in some significant way.

 

[IAtaman]

You are wrong my friend, I am an expert in testing high-end equipment, I have a music production studio in which I spent more than $100,000, I have tested dacs from several brands, I even have an Apogee Symphony desktop, which costs $1600, It has a 9028 pro chip, and the d90se sounds much better than this one and others that I have tried. I have my control room acoustically conditioned and calibrated with a frequency response of +-3 db throughout the frequency range, and I can assure you. that not only do dacs sound very different, but even changing a cheap power cable for a more expensive one also makes a difference. Those of you who say that there is no difference, it is because you do not have adequate equipment or listening place, to be able to hear that difference my friend. These dacs are not for everyone, they are for people who have very high-end equipment. I have it and I can confirm that there is a big difference. In case you wanted to know, you can ask me whatever you want, I am at your disposal. greetings from Spain.

Only $100K? Sorry, we don't take anyone who has spent less than a million seriously around here.

 

[DonR]

@BDWoody Thanks for the LOL management! This thread is getting nearly as funny as the A Call for Humor thread.

 

[IAtaman]

There are people with expensive watches, does that make them experts in telling time ?

Average cost of food is $413 per person per month in the US according to the internet. By the time you reach 50, you'd have spent more than $250K on food. That means there are $117M nutrition experts in the US according to 2020 census. Not bad.

 

[ahofer]

Average cost of food is $413 per person per month in the US according to the internet. By the time you reach 50, you'd have spent more than $250K on food. That means there are $117M nutrition experts in the US according to 2020 census. Not bad.

True. In fact, sad to say, I may be $100k into the hobby now after 45 years. in 2024 dollars, anyway.

 

[IAtaman]

True. In fact, sad to say, I may be $100k into the hobby now after 45 years. in 2024 dollars, anyway.

Audio or food?

 

[ahofer]

Audio or food?

LOL. Food's gotta be a lot more. As it happens, I have my budgeting software open and it looks like my wife and I spend like $5k/month on food & drink, although I didn't always live so large. Electronics, broadly defined here, is more like $15-$20k per year.

 

[IAtaman]

LOL. Food's gotta be a lot more. As it happens, I have my budgeting software open and it looks like my wife and I spend like $5k/month on food & drink, although I didn't always live so large. Electronics, broadly defined here, is more like $15-$20k per year.

You effectively have a PhD on nutrition And a honorary sommelier as well, depending on your drinking habits.

 

[ahofer]

You effectively have a PhD on nutrition And a honorary sommelier as well, depending on your drinking habits.

Says wine & liquor is ~$350/month of that (and I don't drink liquor, so...). Time to head over to the wine forums and condescend.

Maybe like this guy-

https://twitter.com/3YearLetterman

(If you haven't seen him snare a rube, you've missed a rare treat. like this - https://x.com/SStricklandMMA/status/1748126081352131004?s=20)

 

[Devian]

Huh. Arguable.

It's very subjective.

I own motu1248 as a main mixing interface. I used to that sound. It's a very neutral, detailed and transparent implementation of the ESS sabre.

Comparing to Zen Dac v2..

Ifi has less details and textures, but it tries to give beefy bass, extra presence in mid/highs, but the overall resolution is lower.
Topping is supposed to be neutral, but it brings some dark coloration to the sound.

I have a lot of sound units. Focusrite Clarett +, Motu 1248, Rupert Neve RNHP, Audeeze LCD-X are my main mixing gear(+ Neumann KH120/KH750, Amphion One 15 + amp 100, iLoud Micro Monitors). I can tell something more here....

Topping didn't fit to this, but it has it's own character and performance. Zen Dac do a lot of coloration and frequency boost for the listening expirience.

So I've took Zen Dac v2 + topping a90 + Fostex TR-50mk3 to my office workplace. It drives my process of coding and engineering. I'm quite satisfied with this experience.
But nothing more.

It's a good consumer level sound. If you want more - get another gear and train your ears. I have it. Zen Dac v2 is quite joyful.

And again, it's very subjective. My truth is not yours and vice verca. That's OK.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

It's very subjective.

I own motu1248 as a main mixing interface. I used to that sound. It's a very neutral, detailed and transparent implementation of the ESS sabre.

Comparing to Zen Dac v2..

Ifi has less details and textures, but it tries to give beefy bass, extra presence in mid/highs, but the overall resolution is lower.
Topping is supposed to be neutral, but it brings some dark coloration to the sound.

I have a lot of sound units. Focusrite Clarett +, Motu 1248, Rupert Neve RNHP, Audeeze LCD-X are my main mixing gear(+ Neumann KH120/KH750, Amphion One 15 + amp 100, iLoud Micro Monitors). I can tell something more here....

Topping didn't fit to this, but it has it's own character and performance. Zen Dac do a lot of coloration and frequency boost for the listening expirience.

So I've took Zen Dac v2 + topping a90 + Fostex TR-50mk3 to my office workplace. It drives my process of coding and engineering. I'm quite satisfied with this experience.
But nothing more.

It's a good consumer level sound. If you want more - get another gear and train your ears. I have it. Zen Dac v2 is quite joyful.

And again, it's very subjective. My truth is not yours and vice verca. That's OK.

Your truth is not even your own. Listening sighted and not level matched is very very unreliable and you are basically kidding yourself (not only you, but every human is subject to unconscious biases).

See here for example.

And mainly for electronics (especially DACs) you don’t even need to do complicated ABX listening tests but look at the measurements. I doubt that any of your perceptions can be explained by measurements. And no it’s not the measurements fault as they are orders of magnitude more resolving than the human ear.

 

[Devian]

Your truth is not even your own. Listening sighted and not level matched is very very unreliable and you are basically kidding yourself (not only you, but every human is subject to unconscious biases).

See here for example.

And mainly for electronics (especially DACs) you don’t even need to do complicated ABX listening tests but look at the measurements. I doubt that any of your perceptions can be explained by measurements. And no it’s not the measurements fault as they are orders of magnitude more resolving than the human ear.

OK.

Take two DACs with measured dynamic range and THD+N.

For example something that is based on CS43198 and some old 12 bit DAC from 1987.

Dynamic range of the units are ~120db vs ~95db
THD+N(most important) are ~107db vs ~80db

It's noticeable as day and night.

Higher spec DACs gives more details in sound, more dynamics and performance. But It also can give a clear boring sterility while a lower spec dac gives more distortion and extra harmonics to the sound, making it audible richer.

You can find the proof asking synth geeks. Virtual Analog synthesizers from 1990-s sounds richer, fatter and etc because of the DAC from that era.
In 2000s industry improved DACs to the higher specs and new Virtual Analog synths begin to sound more sterile but clearer. That was not liked at all.

iFI uses the old DAC chip from 2003(DSD1793). It's specs are outdated, but It gives some character to the sound.
I understand the reason to do that and base all company sound to that converter.

Modern electronic recordings playing on high spec DACs gives much more resolution, textures and information is sound.

Comparing the generations of DAC is like watching a CGI graphics in movies from 1990s and 2020s

 

[HarmonicTHD]

OK.

Take two DACs with measured dynamic range and THD+N.

For example something that is based on CS43198 and some old 12 bit DAC from 1987.

Dynamic range of the units are ~120db vs ~95db
THD+N(most important) are ~107db vs ~80db

It's noticeable as day and night.

Higher spec DACs gives more details in sound, more dynamics and performance. But It also can give a clear boring sterility while a lower spec dac gives more distortion and extra harmonics to the sound, making it audible richer.

You can find the proof asking synth geeks. Virtual Analog synthesizers from 1990-s sounds richer, fatter and etc because of the DAC from that era.
In 2000s industry improved DACs to the higher specs and new Virtual Analog synths begin to sound more sterile but clearer. That was not liked at all.

iFI uses the old DAC chip from 2003(DSD1793). It's specs are outdated, but It gives some character to the sound.
I understand the reason to do that and base all company sound to that converter.

Modern electronic recordings playing on high spec DACs gives much more resolution, textures and information is sound.

Comparing the generations of DAC is like watching a CGI graphics in movies from 1990s and 2020s

Still no facts just more anecdotes. Did you even watch the video, let alone understand it? If not, do so and ask questions.

Prove to yourself if you can hear 107 vs 80dB SINAD. Take one of the online automatic ABX tests and post the results here.

I bet my Stereo on the outcome.

 

[Devian]

Still no facts just more anecdotes. Did you even watch the video, let alone understand it? If not, do so and ask questions.

Prove to yourself if you can hear 107 vs 80dB SINAD. Take one of the online automatic ABX tests and post the results here.

I bet my Stereo on the outcome.

So you say that there is no noticeable difference between any DAC. OK

Here is another anecdote for you. Mastering engineers are idiots who pay $3k+ for the mastering level DAC with good clock, power supply, filters and etc.
Whole professional mixing/mastering engineers are kidding themselves. I understand this now. You opened my eyes