Mhdt Labs Pagoda Review (R2R Tube DAC)

[solderdude]

Why not build something that ticks all the boxes, and also has decent performance?

Because not all the boxes would be ticked. You can't tick all the boxes and not have huge (and specific type) distortion and filterless and have decent measurements.

I still think it's a cobbled-together

We may have a different definition of cobbled together.
To me that means it looks like a DIY spider web assembly. This PCB was carefully designed and quality components were used.

 

[TheHighContemplator]

It's almost an achievement to make a product this poor.

 

[MGG]

No it can't be....is it really you Bob?

Bob? Neil!

 

[HiFidFan]

Time for an ABX listening test against Topping D90SE

 

[MGG]

I don't see this happening.
The effects I mentioned are btw much better studied systematically with proper emulations and then stringent blind tests. It's all on the table (all required software is available and most DACs allow 192kHz++ sample rates for imaging emulation), everybody can and should do their own tests.

Software emulators are super popular among professionals, I could never understand why they never achieved same success in home audio. Instead of buying various (often very expensive) hardware devices then you could simply add new plug in or load new profile into existing device.
Though seeing how much home audio industry struggles with anything software related I'm not sure if any of the establish home audio manufacturers could deliver working let alone stable, easy usable and long term supported solution.

 

[bidn]

Here some excerpts from a big, very impressive and objective Head-Fi "review"
(I would rather call it meaningless moneyphile paid verbose):

... One of the key differences that became apparent upon first comparing the two DACs is that the PCM1704 based Pagoda is a significantly better performer in regards to the retrieval of musical detail than is the PCM56P based Stockholm 2. Neither DAC is “clinically” granular in it's detail retrieval which is to say that neither DAC sounds clinical or unnatural or as though they are artificially enhancing details in the music. But the Pagoda is certainly the more capable in regards to rendering such details and especially, the “micro” details of any given track.

And by details and “micro” details I mean the oh-so-important, subtle nuances inherent in any well recorded bit of music that are so often key to inducing chills in the listener or that might make one look over one's shoulder for the thought that there is someone moving behind you. Things like the high pitched slide of a bass players fingers over a fret board, or on the other hand, the lack of the obvious “bump” sounds that frets on a fret board make as those fingers slide, which might clue the listener in to the fact that the bass players fret board doesn't have frets on it at all. Or the wooden “tap” of a traditional drumstick on a high hat versus the soft “scratch” on the same high hat which would indicate the use of brushes instead of sticks. Little things like the misplaced tap of a foot against a mic stand during a live recording that invariable will emit as a “thump” through the house PA or the perennially mentioned “page turn” so often heard in well recorded symphonic works. Shuffling feet, coughs from the audience, the way reverb in a live recording can reveal the size of the room being played in, strings buzzing on frets, strings breaking and even the turning of tuning pegs can all be heard in well recorded music and both the Pagoda and the Stockholm 2 DAC render them wonderfully and naturally.

But the Pagoda does it better.

It's not exaggerated and it's certainly not artificial sounding but the presence of these details is noticed more so with the Pagoda than with the Stockholm 2. There is a certain “haze” that is lifted when moving from the Stockholm 2 to the Pagoda and suddenly the musical details become more apparent, more defined overall and what you might call having a “more visible shape” or being “more solid around the edges.” This “haze” I mention isn't necessarily a bad thing and in fact, I think some users will prefer the more laid back, easy going nature of the PCM56P based Stockholm 2 over the more technically minded Pagoda … but more on that in my closing thoughts (because I really think either DAC will appeal more or less depending on one's listening preferences).
As with so much of this review pontificating, I find myself reaching for metaphors and descriptions which always seem inadequate after the writing but I know of no other way to communicate it.

But on to another key difference that I have noticed and one that is no less apparent than the comments made regarding detail retrieval above...

To re state things, as with the “details/micro details” comments above, the Pagoda is the more precise machine in regards to the rendering of music. The well dressed Pagoda might be slightly less “sexy” sounding than the more casually dressed Stockholm 2, it might not be quite so forgiving of bad recordings but it has the same NOS/R2R soul and the same delicious musicality as the Stockholm 2 but with considerably more refinement. If I were to continue with a female metaphor of sorts? (It would be disingenuous of me to discuss things in a male context here): Where the Stockholm 2 arrives all tan and sweaty in it's sun dress and flip flops, hair a bit unkempt but alluring as all get out, sipping a Belgian Ale? The Pagoda in turn arrives dressed to the nines in patent leather black pumps, hair meticulously sculpted in the finest of enticing shapes and layers, nary a strand out of place and wearing a red, split back evening gown, casually and quickly tipping back neat shots of Mortlach 70 Year Scotch. And as each of these turn through the room, their respective hemlines occasionally part or rise to reveal identical crescent moon shaped tattoos on their ankles...

... Another area where I found the Pagoda to excel was when listening to high resolution tracks (192khz/24bit, etc.). Here again, as with the significant difference in regards to sounds stage, I also found a marked difference between the Pagoda and Stockholm 2 when rendering high resolution music. 192Khz/24bit tracks were simply more resolved with the Pagoda, sounding markedly more dynamic, more detailed and more expertly rendered than when listening via the Stockholm 2. When first listening to some of the Chesky Records high resolution tracks, I finally heard what makes this sort of music stand out from typical Red Book 44khz/16bit music, whereas for years, with the Havana DAC and also the Stockholm 2 DAC, I could really detect know significant difference. There really is something to that whole high res thing, after all and it took a proper 24bit DAC for me to hear it. Both the Havana and Stockholm 2 can receive these files just fine but ultimately, due to the use of the PCM56P chip, they still output in 16bits which, in essence, truncates the data present in 192khz/24bit music. For those interested in high resolution listening, the Pagoda is without a doubt the obvious best choice...

EDIT:
and this for the least capable, by far the worst ever measured DAC!!!


From:

MHDT Lab Pagoda: A review ...

Intro --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've used MHDT Laboratories DACs for quite some time. Having spent a great amount of time exploring the DAC landscape so many years ago, it became quite clear to me...

www.head-fi.org

And that review is so much longer...

In this review, the guy writes often about his numerous exchanges with the manufacturer: I guess this manufacturer must really have paid him a lot of money for him to invent all this nonsense and to put so much effort into writing such a long Head-Fi prose in lyrical terms...

 

[Zensō]

Why are products like this one made? Seems like such a massive waste of materials, time, logistics and effort. I don't understand it.

Because so many audiophiles are gullible. There’s lots of money to be made among the “Trust My Ears” crowd.

 

[_thelaughingman]

Willful ignorance in the "trust my ears" crowd is a gift, that they brandish around like a badge of honor. God forbid you ever question their integrity and belief.

 

[bidn]

Also re. this huge Head- Fi review:
here are the reactions to this nonsense by different Head- Fi members, it says a lot:

Incredible review

one of the best review i have read thanks

thanks Joel, good work... I think I'm gonna get the Pagoda in the nearest future

This is super helpful

Great review and comparison

very complete and full of info

And so on ...

Hopefully they will evolve towards becoming more critical and less gullible, understanding that such a huge length of nicely written nonsense is merely a covert paid ad.

 

[bidn]

I am not feeling well you all.... So please take it easy as far asking for other stuff for me to do....

Sorry to hear that.
In our pandemic days, there are dangerous viruses lurking around in the audio world, like MQA-19 (I heard in the news that Warner and Tidal are severely infected, lying and being intubated with breathing devices in the hospital emergency department).
No joke, I hope you didn't catch the Covid-19.
All the best,
bidn

 

[voodooless]

Here some excerpts from a big, very impressive and objective Head-Fi "review"
(I would rather call it meaningless moneyphile paid verbose):

As a next opensource project we should really create an AI to generate these kinds of reviews based on the objective measurements Learn it with current tested products and subjective reviews on the internet, and then let it come up with new subjective reviews for freshly tested stuff.

 

[_thelaughingman]

As a next opensource project we should really create an AI to generate these kinds of reviews based on the objective measurements Learn it with current tested products and subjective reviews on the internet, and then let it come up with new subjective reviews for freshly tested stuff.

I actually had thought about such a project where you can accumulate data of reviews which are objective and data driven to feed into ML and get an end product that could determine viabilty of performance based on data.

 

[KxDx]

Why are products like this one made? Seems like such a massive waste of materials, time, logistics and effort. I don't understand it.

I can all but guarantee you the profit margins on these devices are an order of magnitude greater than Topping's.

 

[Tks]

R2R lovers, we've found the DAC end-game you can rest assured you will never find better before you see the grave.

Everytime I see bad SINAD my eyes hover straight to the clocking metric. Had no idea what I was looking at, all I knew, is it was bad. This bad though? Just wow.

 

[ta240]

Why people like distortion ? it reduces available DR and finer details which is perceived by "audiophiles" as warmer, thicker fuller sound even if it is no way near the original intended performance. .....

I get people not liking the performance of this; but what I will never understand is the absolute disdain that is shown here for those that might actually like something different. I wouldn't buy this but I don't care if someone else likes it. But, lets continue feeding on negativity.

@amirm, I think it is unanimous. You have to do a listening test, no matter how painful that may be!

Nah, because it would be a sighted test and, shockingly, he would hear everything he sees in the test.

Double blind testing is only for one side of the argument.

agreed. It doesn't make sense to judge them for transparency, when they are not made for providing it.
they are by definition effects.
not sure how you would rank them tecnicly though. At the end it probably doesn't even make sense to meassure them

I've said many times that it doesn't make sense testing them here since they aren't designed with the goal of this site in mind. These types of tests seem to be just so everyone can get excited about how much it doesn't meet the standards of the group; and bash it and the people that might like it.
I can't think of any other group that spends time looking at products that weren't designed for the purpose they want.

I can all but guarantee you the profit margins on these devices are an order of magnitude greater than Topping's.

On individual components or overall? I'd imagine the production costs in such small amounts would be quite a bit higher and with many of toppings offerings if they die it isn't worth the expense and time of sending it around the world for 'warranty'. So they save a lot in that area.

 

[Zensō]

I get people not liking the performance of this; but what I will never understand is the absolute disdain that is shown here for those that might actually like something different. I wouldn't buy this but I don't care if someone else likes it. But, lets continue feeding on negativity.

My perception is that the disdain is actually directed more toward the manufacturers who make this stuff, as well as the reviewers who promote and profit from it. The fact that unsuspecting people buy into the marketing BS and support these questionable companies is certainly frustrating, but they're more the victims than the culprits.

 

[Juhazi]

@amirm How about listening impressions? I fail to notice anything about the sound, can you hear the distortion, noise or anything else good or bad?

I have only one tube-preamp which sounds good (transparent), so I'm not an expert. I believe that the tube power-amp like distortion % is exactly what designers of Pagoda wanted to achieve. Most likely this DAC is connected to a normal hifi class AB amp.

And yes the switchable fuse does have diode marking on it! Yet another nice feature for serious hifists!

 

[antcollinet]

those blue thingies are jumpers for 115/230V setting.
The labelling JP2 is the give away.

Damnit - so they are

Creepage/clearance still looks dodgy though.

 

[Svperstar]

I get people not liking the performance of this; but what I will never understand is the absolute disdain that is shown here for those that might actually like something different. I wouldn't buy this but I don't care if someone else likes it. But, lets continue feeding on negativity.

I can't speak for everyone but the distain is the notion that these kind of blurry low res DACs are natural. I owned an MHDT labs DAC. I have been to concerts, I have heard live acoustic guitar, live singing, live drums. MHDT labs claim their DACs sound "natural" but real live music sounds nothing like how it is presented over their products.

 

[lewdish]

To be fair if this was to objectively get the most distortion this would be the way to do it