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Zensō

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I've sometimes wondered if a mod to use a Moulton cone spring or similar would improve it. It's been some years since I rode a Brompton though, so the stock one may have improved over the old one.
I had a Moulton and had trouble with the rear suspension bobbing. It was probably fixable but the bike was on long term loan so I wasn't able to make any DIY mods. I preferred the Brompton, though the ride was more harsh.
 

Zensō

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Cool. But the point of really supple tires is that they suffer fewer hysteresis losses even at pressures that don't rattle your teeth out of their sockets, and thus enjoy low rolling resistance. With a small wheel, jitter losses (I just love coining that term!), where the wheel moves up and down instead of forward even at a micro-level, are more an issue. Low pressure helps with jitter, but so does a low tangent angle at the contact patch. Lower pressure increases hysteresis, unless the tire is extremely supple.

Rick "who has 120-count thin-treaded tires on his gravel bike" Denney
Gotcha. I ride ~38mm tires on my country bike, with average pressures of around 50-60 PSI. Nice and cushy...
 

Godataloss

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wAD_hRrsDBQXBRXGO0pIBoJmGaQelO98RZlMr_vlPpxVjRfhM2JTUU1m9Do1vOcTHQMWlQgsec5kpBKSB5TIz_GH4N8SwE-L_DS7kvWqfpo47YYtt7j9CivRo6Hx7ONBzjjnKCF5PJAZ_pHecbNyvHrClOnJ1QQbQ-L2tYToV6w2b6z7SZkZ7Zj9GCxhOBCZ0Pn3P94UOmhrliynrJdQqBrlcxNzZ-rZMr-yatDAydOp3CZrhFAR2iI1XWtubxiJFtiafxPL7nOHaelOB6bJY_tIlFXHkv5Iq63FubEJs09R1kV2KrQItQ9F4aD5gHyK-cJU2OtbfsbWZh__SyNmygZDpXADDsxoYEZ8yFsNU0kv-GQ12G13vT6LR0zre3i1KxpnO0MiycgRPxg4rIVm_ltvkBB9zVZ6TpAJ4is4c48nko7_0S7SdypViXhIkoTKlJT2-MihCNxg2wpvftnxls_uTNqTtVQvu8UHQTSV5JlHa-jQw9_pXvDXL5Yy85aaGrdj3pc0ORaZbk6DCMczTlRrF94K-5xn7QDCnVhxZ6LEFYpEPOepY1_sQRZQL9DeMrIhLfwQ0U6G9vCAdd20m2PYJ4UzmvFdJUwp2abFB0XB82KqEA6Q0IhL3G57kQqfuv_s5iWzqGBoVGonLfPMd3ITQlVxcjYUJuR0e18Q4SUn233g53cxLJEemYH-CEzliXOyU3RGjskqtbASid9X2h2wFg=w1423-h1067-no

Now I am fat and lazy and they never get ridden.
 

somebodyelse

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Cool. But the point of really supple tires is that they suffer fewer hysteresis losses even at pressures that don't rattle your teeth out of their sockets, and thus enjoy low rolling resistance. With a small wheel, jitter losses (I just love coining that term!), where the wheel moves up and down instead of forward even at a micro-level, are more an issue. Low pressure helps with jitter, but so does a low tangent angle at the contact patch. Lower pressure increases hysteresis, unless the tire is extremely supple.
The Marathons pictured are at the better end of rolling resistance for touring tires, but not up there with a good race tire. Choice is a problem for small wheels though.
 

617

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Cool. But the point of really supple tires is that they suffer fewer hysteresis losses even at pressures that don't rattle your teeth out of their sockets, and thus enjoy low rolling resistance. With a small wheel, jitter losses (I just love coining that term!), where the wheel moves up and down instead of forward even at a micro-level, are more an issue. Low pressure helps with jitter, but so does a low tangent angle at the contact patch. Lower pressure increases hysteresis, unless the tire is extremely supple.

Rick "who has 120-count thin-treaded tires on his gravel bike" Denney
I did find the ride on the brompton to be a bit twitchy compared to 700c with 32s on it, but it's not terrible. They're a joy to use otherwise.
 

somebodyelse

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I had a Moulton and had trouble with the rear suspension bobbing. It was probably fixable but the bike was on long term loan so I wasn't able to make any DIY mods. I preferred the Brompton, though the ride was more harsh.
I only tried the Moultons on shortish test rides, a few years after borrowing a friend's Brompton on and off for somewhat longer, which is what made me wonder. I was pretty light back then, and the Brompton rubber bung didn't seem to do much at all. I don't remember a bobbing problem, but it could be rose tinted memories.
 

Willem

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I did find the ride on the brompton to be a bit twitchy compared to 700c with 32s on it, but it's not terrible. They're a joy to use otherwise.
I agree - you really have to concentrate, and more so if the surface is bad. So I would never use my Brompton or similar bike on a long tour, but they are perfect for short rides to and from railway stations etc.
 

paulraphael

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I'll have to dig up a picture. I raced in high school and college, and used my employee discount at a bike shop to pick up a 1984 Schwinn Paramount. I visited the workshop in Wisconsin to pick it up. It was nice enough that I never bought another one.

So now I ride a near antique ... not because I'm a collector or vintage snob, but because it works well enough.

I got way too burned out on racing and training to fetishize bikes as much as I did back then. If that ever changes, I'll have to bite the bullet and get something contemporary. The new stuff is definitely in another league in performance.
 

Spocko

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I'll have to dig up a picture. I raced in high school and college, and used my employee discount at a bike shop to pick up a 1984 Schwinn Paramount. I visited the workshop in Wisconsin to pick it up. It was nice enough that I never bought another one.

So now I ride a near antique ... not because I'm a collector or vintage snob, but because it works well enough.

I got way too burned out on racing and training to fetishize bikes as much as I did back then. If that ever changes, I'll have to bite the bullet and get something contemporary. The new stuff is definitely in another league in performance.
I think the next level performance is really the significant improvements to (1) lighter frames and aero wheels (2) smooth failproof derailleur systems and (3) more ergonomic geometry, but dangit all, seats have NOT improved much if at all LOL
 

paulraphael

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I think the next level performance is really the significant improvements to (1) lighter frames and aero wheels (2) smooth failproof derailleur systems and (3) more ergonomic geometry, but dangit all, seats have NOT improved much if at all LOL
I've ridden a friend's pro tour-level bike a couple of times. It didn't fit, and I wasn't wearing cycling shoes, and I just did a lap of the parking lot—but even so the differences were obvious. I'd just end up accelerating a whole lot harder for any given push on a pedal. And the ride felt like a magic carpet. The carbon fiber was noticeably better at damping vibrations than the heavy Columbus SP pipes on my Paramount.

For me seats have gotten better too. Might be that I was masochistically committed to those gorgeous, sculpture-like Concor saddles from the '80s. They looked (and felt) like they were hewn from a block of stone. A couple of years ago I got a hand-me-down modern seat (Selle SMP?) from the friend mentioned above, and it's almost comfortable! The company makes them in dozens of widths and padding levels ... the one I have wasn't even selected to fit me. But it's a huge step up from what I was used to.

Seat, tires, and pedals are the concessions I've made to the 21st century. The rest of my ride is a relic.
 

rdenney

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I think the next level performance is really the significant improvements to (1) lighter frames and aero wheels (2) smooth failproof derailleur systems and (3) more ergonomic geometry, but dangit all, seats have NOT improved much if at all LOL
Hmmm. More aero wheels, yes indeed. But lighter? I wrote an article on that topic in Triathlete back in the late 90's, performing some analytics using Tom Compton's web site (now, sadly, gone). Here's my copy on my web page: https://www.rickdenney.com/october_1999.htm.

It takes a lot of weight difference to make a significant difference, as it turns out--more than we think. But light weight sells parts (that break or are wiggly). My MX-Leader is 22 or 23 pounds built up with Campy Chorus, and they were described in the day as the bike the (bigger) pros didn't want to ride up the mountains, but the one they were glad they had coming back down the mountains.

The use of the non-horizontal top tube is a weight-savings measure, but we dang near have to add all that weight back into the seatpost that now has to support our fat butts with a foot and a half showing above the seatpost clamp.

But aero wheels? Yes--that makes a more significant difference for those who do triathlon or time trials. For non-racers, I doubt it matters a whit. Those 32- or 36-spoke shallow-section rims sure were light. :)

Failproof derailleurs? Hmmmm. Certainly the cheap stuff is better. But once in a while I go for a ride on the Moore, and remind myself that those downtube friction shifters (which are light and foolproof) just work, and work actually really well. Sure, I prefer shifting with my hands on the brake lever hoods, particularly if I'm climbing out of the saddle. But I don't confuse convenience of operation with "smooth" and "failproof". In fact, if a Shimano brake-lever-shifter breaks, it's probably time for the trash can. (The Campy Ergo levers of old--which I prefer--seem a little easier to bring back, but that's anecdotal on my part.) I have Gripshift on my MTB, and have had to rebuild it once, despite fairly low (though painful) miles. I have no experience with SRAM, but I hear good things about it. But I've never met a Campy Nuovo Record derailleur I couldn't make perfect, barring crash damage, and the Sun Tour Cyclone of the late 70's totally obsoleted all the prior inexpensive derailleur designs for smooth operation.

Geometry more ergonomic? Only if you like leaning over more. The geometry of race bikes seeks a flatter back than in days of yore (see above about aerodynamics being more important than weight). That's good for efficiency, but hard on the wrists and elbows (and back, and neck). That's why people invented elbow rests, which morphed into tri-bars. Also, as I can attest, after swimming 2.4 miles, the ability to hold up one's upper body with those trashed arms is at a low state. Greg Lemond first used them in the Tour de France and changed pro cycling (in time trials) forever.

Personally, I'm of the mind that older bikes with a longer wheelbase and slacker angles are actually better for just about everything (okay, not track sprints, and--maybe--not criteriums).

One place where technology has improved is in stiffness optimization. We want a bit of fork flex up and down, and we want a long wheelbase to minimize vertical accelerations caused by a given surface profile. The problem with those long chain stays is that they twist easily. The truss design of a double-diamond frame deflects so little under even impact that it hardly makes any difference, but when we clydesdales stand up on those pedals, or when the guys with 30" thighs jump on a sprint, the bottom bracket will wind up torsionally. On a lightweight steel frame, I can make the front derailleur drag on both sides of the cage. On early aluminum bicycles like the wet-noodle Alan of 45 years ago, I can make it shift gears. That's with conventional tubing sets. The Columbus MXL tubing on the MX-Leader includes enormously stiff chain stays--they are the full height of the bottom-bracket shell where they connect to it. That makes all the difference in torsional stiffness, without giving up a bit of comfort. Those specially and asymmetrically shaped tubing sets were indeed a significant improvement, no matter what the material. Carbon bikes can target stiffness right where they want to, and do it with remarkable weight efficiency. Carbon composites that are affordable is another big advance, but not because they are light so much as they are stiff in the right directions and compliant otherwise.

Back when we were buying race bikes in the 70's, we used tall frames, short seatposts, long stems pushed down all the way, and handlebars with deep drops. (My favorites where Cinelli Model 66's.) Racing was done in the drops for the most part.

My old A&M Cycling Team mate John Simmons, a great college road sprinter back before colleges even really had official teams, showing the usual racing position while taking a flyer at a race in 1979:
amct_simmons.JPG


Now, we have shorter frames, longer seatposts (and longer still if the frame has a sloping top tube), "ergo" bars designed for the drops only on special occasions, and brifters. Better? Yes, for getting more aero, and for selling more high-end bikes. John has to be in the drops to get a flat back. Now, you'll see a flat back on the tops (bent elbows, of course).

And aero wheels--yup. That's a big'un.

Rick "figuring his Spinergy HD's saved him 5-6 minutes at the Ironman" Denney
 
Last edited:

dasdoing

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Hmmm. More aero wheels, yes indeed. But lighter? I wrote an article on that topic in Triathlete back in the late 90's, performing some analytics using Tom Compton's web site (now, sadly, gone). Here's my copy on my web page: https://www.rickdenney.com/october_1999.htm.

It takes a lot of weight difference to make a significant difference, as it turns out--more than we think. But light weight sells parts (that break or are wiggly). My MX-Leader is 22 or 23 pounds built up with Campy Chorus, and they were described in the day as the bike the (bigger) pros didn't want to ride up the mountains, but the one they were glad they had coming back down the mountains.

The use of the non-horizontal top tube is a weight-savings measure, but we dang near have to add all that weight back into the seatpost that now has to support our fat butts with a foot and a half showing above the seatpost clamp.

But aero wheels? Yes--that makes a more significant difference for those who do triathlon or time trials. For non-racers, I doubt it matters a whit. Those 32- or 36-spoke shallow-section rims sure were light. :)

Failproof derailleurs? Hmmmm. Certainly the cheap stuff is better. But once in a while I go for a ride on the Moore, and remind myself that those downtube friction shifters (which are light and foolproof) just work, and work actually really well. Sure, I prefer shifting with my hands on the brake lever hoods, particularly if I'm climbing out of the saddle. But I don't confuse convenience of operation with "smooth" and "failproof". In fact, if a Shimano brake-lever-shifter breaks, it's probably time for the trash can. (The Campy Ergo levers of old--which I prefer--seem a little easier to bring back, but that's anecdotal on my part.) I have Gripshift on my MTB, and have had to rebuild it once, despite fairly low (though painful) miles. I have no experience with SRAM, but I hear good things about it. But I've never met a Campy Nuovo Record derailleur I couldn't make perfect, barring crash damage, and the Sun Tour Cyclone of the late 70's totally obsoleted all the prior inexpensive derailleur designs for smooth operation.

Geometry more ergonomic? Only if you like leaning over more. The geometry of race bikes seeks a flatter back than in days of yore (see above about aerodynamics being more important than weight). That's good for efficiency, but hard on the wrists and elbows (and back, and neck). That's why people invented elbow rests, which morphed into tri-bars. Also, as I can attest, after swimming 2.4 miles, the ability to hold up one's upper body with those trashed arms is at a low state. Greg Lemond first used them in the Tour de France and changed pro cycling (in time trials) forever.

Personally, I'm of the mind that older bikes with a longer wheelbase and slacker angles are actually better for just about everything (okay, not track sprints, and--maybe--not criteriums).

One place where technology has improved is in stiffness optimization. We want a bit of fork flex up and down, and we want a long wheelbase to minimize vertical accelerations caused by a given surface profile. The problem with those long chain stays is that they twist easily. The truss design of a double-diamond frame deflects so little under even impact that it hardly makes any difference, but when we clydesdales stand up on those pedals, or when the guys with 30" thighs jump on a sprint, the bottom bracket will wind up torsionally. On a lightweight steel frame, I can make the front derailleur drag on both sides of the cage. On early aluminum bicycles like the wet-noodle Alan of 45 years ago, I can make it shift gears. That's with conventional tubing sets. The Columbus MXL tubing on the MX-Leader includes enormously stiff chain stays--they are the full height of the bottom-bracket shell where they connect to it. That makes all the difference in torsional stiffness, without giving up a bit of comfort. Those specially and asymmetrically shaped tubing sets were indeed a significant improvement, no matter what the material. Carbon bikes can target stiffness right where they want to, and do it with remarkable weight efficiency. Carbon composites that are affordable is another big advance, but not because they are light so much as they are stiff in the right directions and compliant otherwise.

Back when we were buying race bikes in the 70's, we used tall frames, short seatposts, long stems pushed down all the way, and handlebars with deep drops. (My favorites where Cinelli Model 66's.) Racing was done in the drops for the most part.

My old A&M Cycling Team mate John Simmons, a great college road sprinter back before colleges even really had official teams, showing the usual racing position while taking a flyer at a race in 1979:
amct_simmons.JPG


Now, we have shorter frames, longer seatposts (and longer still if the frame has a sloping top tube), "ergo" bars designed for the drops only on special occasions, and brifters. Better? Yes, for getting more aero, and for selling more high-end bikes. John has to be in the drops to get a flat back. Now, you'll see a flat back on the tops (bent elbows, of course).

And aero wheels--yup. That's a big'un.

Rick "figuring his Spinergy HD's saved him 5-6 minutes at the Ironman" Denney

I don't think wheight is any factor on flat roads at all. not even rotated weight, as the heavier wheel will take more energy to get to speed, but it will give you that energy back as soon as you coast
 

rdenney

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I don't think wheight is any factor on flat roads at all. not even rotated weight, as the heavier wheel will take more energy to get to speed, but it will give you that energy back as soon as you coast
Correct, except for what is absorbed by hysteresis in rolling resistance.

Rick "which isn't much, but it's also not nothing" Denney
 
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